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Post by g4qber » Sat, 31 May 2014, 20:55

What speeds were you doing ac?

May I trouble you to see what % you get on full charge ?
I've been getting 96.5% and 99.0%
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Post by g4qber » Sat, 21 Jun 2014, 18:33

goget believes that the imiev can go up to 150km.

https://www.goget.com.au/find-cars/our- ... hi-i-miev/
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Post by Malm » Sun, 22 Jun 2014, 13:43

Until February it was usual to get 96,5% SoC in a full charge. But sometimes 99%. I think when it charges only 96,5% that is a sign of some degradation, but don't show all of it, some will be in the last 10% (turtle). In a new i-MiEV, it will always charge to 99,5% or 100%, I think.
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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 22 Jun 2014, 15:14

Malm,
      My head is spinning from all the theory's.

All I can say is battery meters are not very accurate don't read into them to much.

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Post by Malm » Sun, 22 Jun 2014, 15:47

Yes, I feel that remaining battery capacity readings can be misleading too, but if we can use it to get a new battery from Mitsubishi (specially because they tell us nothing about the importance of the climate), why not?

I know that I show things that no one saw before, say things that no one thought about. Maybe some of them we will find that are correct, who knows???

Lots of fun, trying to find the way to keep them in shape, and I believe I'm being very successful.

   
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 02:51

Canion (when I use it) always says 100% when charge finishes so no clues there.

I log recharge kWh and that is repeatable on the same run and same conditions.
The change over nearly 2 years has been that bars left + recharge kWh has reduced from 16.5 at new to between 15.5 and 16 now so something has changed. I've never been below 1 bar so I don't have a complete end to end number and am relying on the energy meter and canion to know where I am.
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 03:04

Acmotor,
        Is that 15.5 - 16 kwh from 1 bar - 2 bars ? Or are you getting say 14kwh and then adding on the % soc that you had before charging?

The 14.350kwh I got today doesn't really stack up as I would say there is a high chance my battery would have more capacity that yours considering its age - use and cycles.

I have packed two energy meters and over the week I will try again. It could be a dud meter. This afternoon i did plug both meters onto the same load and they did agree with each other within a few watts on a 2000w load.

Knowing where you are on the SOC % is the trick though its not always easy or reliable. You would think simple coulomb counting would be a start but temperature, C rate and recalibration each charge that sets the datum plays its part.

Kurt

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Post by acmotor » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 03:42

For example when new 12.5kWh from wall plus 4kWh on energy meter for total of 16.5kWh.
Remember I didn't have canion until 30,000km covered and still believe the power from the wall is the number that is without question.
Now 11.5 to 12kWh from wall plus 4kWh for 15.5 to 16kWh assuming 1kWh per energy meter division and note this is the trend over hundreds of charges. Also the energy meter is also becoming less than 1 kWh.

Malm, how does your battery capacity look using this method ?
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Post by g4qber » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 04:05

my imiev seems to charge to 96.5% via canion app at times.
tonight at Yanchep it went to 98.0% via the 10A Holden EVSE.
then driving moderately, first bar disappears at 5-6km.
normally I would get 8km; when Canion says charge is 100%
but of course now is winter.
but then also I have been stressing the pack by going round race tracks.

there are 16 bars on the imiev, but canion shows 14 bars when SoC is 96.5%
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 04:22

ok that's fine to try and find your own trends though hard for others to compare to.

The energy meter isn't that consistent as in 1 bar = one kwh. The only reason the energy meter has 16 bars is because they used the fuel gauge from the ( 660cc I car ) go have a look at a 2006 I car and it has the same digital fuel gauge as the Imiev with 16 bars. Its just a coincidence that the I miev has a 16kwh battery. I wouldn't try and relate it to KWH's

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Post by Malm » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 07:49

And all the bars don´t mean the same energy (16 bar - 8% SoC, 15 bar - 7%, 14 bar - 5%, 13 bar - 5%, 12 bar - 5%, 11 bar - 5%, 10 bar - 5%, 9 bar - 5%, 8 bar - 5 %, 7 bar - 5%, 6 bar - 5%, 5 bar - 6%, 4 bar - 6%, 3 bar - 6%, 2 bar - 5%, 1 bar - 5%, -- - 2% and turtle - 10%).

Because of this, the 16 bars are equivalent to only 14,08 kWh of energy in the battery. From the wall, because of the losses in the process of charging, 1 kWh is very, very similar to one bar.

Now I charge less then you acmotor. From 2 bars (22%) to 100% my i-MiEV will charge only 11,87 kWh from the wall.
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 16:40

Mmmm,
Kurt, on the contrary, I think the recharge from the wall says everything about an EV and allows unambiguous comparison will ALL other EVs.     Electric transport energy = power from the wall.       Truth be known you could take it further and consider solar radiation to km for instance. But that has many other variables.

I agree Malm, 1 bar is very close to 1kWh from the wall. It may reduce as the battery ages but the 'bars remaining' is the small number producing little error in the recharge from wall kWh sum.
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 16:51

Malm, can you record pack voltage vs SOC with canion during recharge ? That may help with comparison. (And temperature)

Definitely 11.87kWh from wall plus 2 bars suggests only around 14kWh capacity in the pack.
I would expect at least 13.5kWh for that recharge from 2 bars.

I expect canion considers 100% SOC to be of present battery aged capacity not 16kWh ? As I still see 100% SOC but I know the pack capacity has reduced from new.


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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 23 Jun 2014, 16:58

My bars varies a lot in how much energy they represent. The 1st bar compared to say the 14th bar. At times its like the 1st bar is double that of the bars towards the end.

Then you have Malms experience with 14% SOC being 0% . I work with several battery SOC gauges everyday with my house and they are a ok guide but not that accurate. The Imievs guage I am sure is the best they could do and hey it works (haven't run out of charge yet)

But if there is variances in where the Imiev thinks its SOC is at the lower end then like you say with have a shifting start point.

Just charging my car from 4 bars now will let you know what the kwh is.
I will do the SOC vs voltage next time I charge.

DO you want it every 10% from say 20% SOC back to 100%?

Kurt.

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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 13:38

So lets talk about four i-MiEVs. This is what I think:

The best of the four is the one of offgridQLD - Charges to 100%, every bar values the same as new, maybe had lost some of the 10% turtle. This i-MiEV had never recalculate its capacity.

G4qber i-MiEV never recalculated its capacity too. But has more degradation then the first, so it charges usually only 96,5% SoC and some of its turtle is gone too (something like 5%, or even more.). Each bar (with the exception of the last to charge), will value the same as the i-MiEV off offgridQLD.

Acmotor has an i-MiEV that recalculated its capacity. Instead of a pack of 16 kWh, it assumes now that its pack is of 14 kWh. So it charges that 14 kWh and know that it is full - 100% SoC.

And finally mine. Recalculated its capacity too. But assumed to be of 11,65 kWh. So, it will charge 11,65 kWh from 0 to full, that is 100%.

If I'm right, one bar of 5% will be as seen in Canion different between me, Acmotor and offgridQLD (bars of 5% are the first after --, the second, 6, 7 ,8 ,9 and 10.)

So as seen by Canion one bar of 5% in the offgridQLD i-MiEV will value -   0,88 kWh. In mine will value 0,64 kWh (I measure it, that's what canion shows on a 5% charge - 1 bar) (it is 72,7% less, and the value, not coincidentally, is the same obtained when we do 36,4 Ahr/50 Ahr - 36,4 Ahr is the value that Mitsubishi gave me last time of the battery remaining capacity). Acmotor 1 bar 5% bar value will be between 0,88 and 0,64, I suspect 0,77 kWh.
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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 13:54

acmotor wrote: Malm, can you record pack voltage vs SOC with canion during recharge ? That may help with comparison. (And temperature)

Definitely 11.87kWh from wall plus 2 bars suggests only around 14kWh capacity in the pack.
I would expect at least 13.5kWh for that recharge from 2 bars.

I expect canion considers 100% SOC to be of present battery aged capacity not 16kWh ? As I still see 100% SOC but I know the pack capacity has reduced from new.



That isn´t a good idea. Because my i-MiEV assumed to be of 11,65 kWh, when in fact it is not so bad (I believe that in the reality it is of 13,8 kWh). So, what happens is that I will have 0,0% SoC and a total voltage much higher then you, because my total SoC is much less energy then yours.
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 14:32

So your saying your have lost 27% of your battery capacity in 66,000km and 3 years?

That doesn't sound that good to me.

For me then when I purchased my car new. I could travel to my destination with 20% SOC at the end point (104km...large hill)Soy using your car as a example. when the car is 3years old and if it had 66,000km on it trying to travel this distance would result in -7% SOC or unachievable?

AC motor,
          You have just shy of 60,000km on your Imiev whats your feeling on what your SOC is after a long trip now. For example are you finding you were able to get to the destination on average with 3 bars remaining now your finding you only have 2 bars or one bar?

Because that's what matters in the end. Its a car you want it to get you places Image

To date (one year on) I am finding I get to my destination with same results % on canion and fuel gauge. Though I have noticed now in winter 12-25C vs 26-35C in summer I have a few % less capacity especially on the colder days.

What I have done with my regular 104km trip is set points along the trip and note when each bar vanishes and what the SOC % is at that point.I also note my whr/km over the trip and keep them consistent. For example my gauge drops from 3 to 2 bars at the 102km distance mark. There is a house at this point. This house becomes the reference point to where I drop to two bars. A bad day could be 100m before and a good day could be 100m after but its surprisingly consistent. Its the same for all the other 14 bars. my conditions after the trip are very consistent. Little to no wind and I am able to sit steady on the posted speed limit for each zone.

So this is my test ground and I am 100% sure if a loose 5 -10 % I will see it for sure by using this method.

Sorry yesterdays kwh test failed as my wall meter reset during the charge. Lets use canion % as our reference point and make a charge from 22% (2 bars) I have a new meter in place and will discharge my pack today down to 22% and recharge again to 100% and report back KWH.

Kurt

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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 14:53

"So your saying your have lost 27% of your battery capacity in 66,000km and 3 years?"

No, what i´m saying is that the car assumed 27% loss of battery capacity, not that it really lost 27% of battery capacity. My car has a degradation similar to the one of acmotor (maybe a little more, 2% more), but recalculated badly its new capacity. How this is possible????, Another theory - my car recalculated its capacity after an unusual cold winter this year in Portugal (and all over Europe and USA), and cold reduces the capacity (but not in an irreversible way). So, in that 27%, there is a percentage that's because of unusual cold never experienced before by my i-MiEV, not a real degradation.

I'm keeping surprising you, I think. Malm's nature.


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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 15:02

Most have not had their iMiEVs for very long. From my converted DIY car, now over 5 years old and 45,000 EV kms, I would say that the series resistance of the cells is higher in winter and so the battery is less efficient when it is cold. IE More current at a lower voltage is what it takes to do the same work with greater losses in heating the battery. Each summer the series resistance goes back down again. I expect some apparently lost capacity might return in summer with the iMiEV too.
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 15:03

Ok that sounds reasonable. In summer you can compare again and see. 100% agree cold temps reduce capacity. Its a fact you can see in battery test graphs. High temps increase capacity but also decrease battery life. You need to find a nice middle point. Perhaps consistent 25C. I also wonder if temp when you charge. Lets say you recharge at night 10C doesn't allow as much capacity to be stored. Even if you discharge at day time 25C.

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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 15:11

The problem is that I don´t know when it makes its recalculation. I think that it only does it once an year, in its birthday (march). Its summer now and I don't see any change. I think that will only happen next march. But I'm now keeping them as cold as I can (much colder then last summer), so I will not expect a recovery.
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Post by acmotor » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 15:24

Offgrid, yes I too have many landmarks though many different long trips. I note the first, 8th (point of no return) and 12 bars. The point of no return is of interest since some of my trips are basically without recharge option in the country.
Consistency nope. I can have 1 bar or 5 bars remaining on the same run. Summer, winter, lights, air one, heater, speed etc but mostly headwind/tailwind effect my range.

Malm, I don't quite follow your reasoning.
As I say in my case, 15.5 to 16 kWh from the wall now vs 16.5 when new. That is 3 to 6 % degradation over two years and 58,000km. I think that is well within Mitsubishi's expectation of 20% at 100,000km.
BTW, I had the impression that battery capacity peaked at around 10,000 km so that the first 20,000 km seemed quite level. May just have been seasons and my settling in to the drive but it was almost like a breaking in period.

So what happens when I can't reach the usual destinations ? Well I still seem to have more than 20% left even now so it will just be getting closer to the wind. It won't be range anxiety, more like battery anxiety.

It will be interesting to see if time, km, temperature, time at high SOC, DOD, time at low SOC etc are the dominant factors. It could be a use it or lose it scenario. From that point it will be good for us to keep track of our various 'care' methods.

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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 15:34

Zelenec from myimiev.com says charged 18,5 kWh when new. If we assume 13% loss to the battery, that would be close to the 16 kWh. I always use the 18,5 kWh value from 0 to 100% at new.

But in mine, I never saw that much too.
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 15:55

For consistency. Fortunately we don't get the winds like WA that would really make it hard for consistency. Speed I am always doing the speed limit quite back roads make that easy. Heater I have never used it before ..(Hey its QLD) AC I drive up their at night so not needed then.

For me I just don't do the Km at the moment so I am the test bed for the use it or loose it theory.

Looking like 10,000km in first year. I do about 20k each year but 10k of that is usually holiday trips in the 4wd. When I change location in 3 years and move into the offgrid house full time I will only need a 25km range each day x 2 each day so 250km a week (school run and local shops)so well within expected capacity loss.

As long as my Imiev can get me to my destination (104km) for the next 3 years and save me $30 week fuel then that's great If not no big deal.

I need to check out what happens in JAN 12 my imiev build date to test Malms anniversary theory for battery recalibration.

I always thought battery capacity calibration would happen all the time (perhaps every time you recharge it from 2 bars or below back to 100% that's what the user manual was indicating.

I know my house battery bank SOC meter calibrates every day otherwise it would get way out of quack over time with the accumulation of small errors each day.

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Post by Malm » Tue, 24 Jun 2014, 16:03

"I need to check out what happens in JAN 12 my imiev build date to test Malms anniversary theory for battery recalibration." That is my weakest theory of all. Maybe because we only can test it once a year.

"I always thought battery capacity calibration would happen all the time." The Nissan Leaf does it every day. I believe i-MiEV don't do it every day, but I really don't know when.
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