Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

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antiscab
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by antiscab »

Brendon do you have to park in the sun every day?
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brendon_m
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by brendon_m »

Yep, every day all day (mon to Fri). It's down an alley type of place so I get a little bit of morning/arvo shade but it's basically full sun
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by francisco.shi »

The BMS reports Ah capacity and the EV-ECU calculates the remaining range. I have (while testing) got it to display as high as 400km. The EV-ECU has an upper limit of what it thinks the effeciency is. Also as the cells wear out the BMS reports a lower Ah which means the range goes down.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by nuggetgalore »

jonescg wrote: Fri, 31 Dec 2021, 20:24 We've been waiting for your build to be posted for over a year now Andreas!
Happy New Year every body.
Congrats Chris to be elected President, I think I am allowed to say thanks from all of us for the tremendous work you and the other office holders have done and do for the benefit of the AEVA members and the community.
Ah,yes my amateur effort to extend the range, not 100% kosher, that is why I am reluctant to show it.
Anyway,here it comes.


Back seats removed and battery installed below.
Now only a twoseater but still can transport as much stuff as before


I inserted a shunt so I can see how much the additional pack works.
This shows pretty close to 50% goes to each pack when AC charging , EvBat Mon says 8 A and the scanner 7 A (no idea which is more accurate).
During driving and regen, the readings between EvBat Mon total amps and the shunt information can vary quite a bit, but then I think the shunt reading is more instantaneous than the transfer of the data via the blue tooth dongle to the phone. Steady load A show much closer 50/50 data than accelerating or hard regeneration.
Image
8 off the original 8 cell units with the fuse in the centre of the pack
The balancers start to balance if the volt difference is more than 100mV and bring the cells back to within 30mV.
So far so good, except for testing they have been unemployed. But I do occasionally measure every cell (yea,88 of the critters and ten modules!) and have not found more than 45 mV between cells or modules. I am pleasantly surprised that since the two cells that went completely dead, the rest have behaved themselves. They have but lost a fair bit of capacity, as expected.

In the rear passenger foot well two units of 12 cells each.
The shunt is at the minus pole of the pack.
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jonescg
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by jonescg »

Wow, those 60 Ah NMC cells were pretty ordinary then. This is probably a better way to use them for mobility, as they would have had a short life on their own.
Definitely only a home storage cell in any other use case.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by nuggetgalore »

jonescg wrote: Sat, 01 Jan 2022, 07:33 Wow, those 60 Ah NMC cells were pretty ordinary then. This is probably a better way to use them for mobility, as they would have had a short life on their own.
Definitely only a home storage cell in any other use case.
Yes at full working amps I don't think they would be still alive, I hope halving the amps for each pack is slowing the deterioration of both. The difference between the highest volt cell and the lowest has definitely improved on the main pack, quite often they are now equal,with the caveat that the scanners do round the true data to two decimals.
We'll see if I can keep the battery going long enough or have to get Greame's 90+ Ah cells if the mechanical condition of the car makes it worthwhile.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by alex19 »

Good day! we use I miev from japan with a 10.5 kWh LTO battery. to increase the distance, we tried to replace the old battery with I miev 16 kWh for 33 kWh (102 Ah cells). Can you find out how you managed to make a real mileage of 240 km? when the battery is zeroed, it shows only 48 Ah. how to do that would show 102 Ah?
francisco.shi wrote: Sun, 21 Nov 2021, 08:34 I have a question for experienced Imiev drivers.
The battery capacity is reported from the BMS.
I then replaced the value (49Ah) with the current battery value (94Ah) and let the car work out the range.
This morning the car was fully charged and the GOM was reporting 299 km of range.
20211121_102240.jpg
This means that without the adjustment it would read 155 with an original new battery.
The upgraded battery is about 30kwh and I have been able to do 10kwh/100km.
So it is not ridiculous that it could potentially do 300km on one charge.
But is it realistic?
Should I try to fix this issue or should I just leave it an let Imiev driving experience convert the number to a realistic value?
[ Edited Coulomb: fixed inconsistent units. ]
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by francisco.shi »

I use a CAN bridge and emulate the BMS.
Then I report the higher Ah and the car does the rest.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by drcat »

@francisco.shi could you please share the exact CAN packets / bytes to patch with a bridge?
I'm trying to build mine with an arduino and two MCP2515+TJA1050
I want two things patched I can see with a scanner:
-The Ah capacity reported by BMU
-The maximum charge current - I believe its reported as well.
While typical consumption of ~30 Amps while driving must be totally ok for 60Ah NMC cells, trying to chademo em at 100-125 is not that good idea.
Don't want to add one more bridge to the internal battery CAN to limit the current by faking cells temp (i.e. if its at room temperature, it allows over 100 amps but if even a single sensor says hey, I'm over 30C - it drops pretty well so I can potentially patch that but I think would be great to do that with a single bridge)

P.S. I don't want to make it to be a know-how thing, so here's the wiring and sketch...
https://github.com/dkotin/can_2515/tree/master/b
for now works on my table - just bidirectionally passes through all the packets. by uncommenting couple lines it could also log the output to the serial at ~2mbps rate.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by coulomb »

drcat wrote: Fri, 07 Jan 2022, 04:29 @francisco.shi could you please share the exact CAN packets / bytes to patch with a bridge?
I hope that Francisco doesn't mind me posting about this; it's a slightly delicate issue, but one that I've been slightly involved in, so I know something of the situation.

Firstly, Francisco's solution is quite complex; it's not just spoofing one or two values. He basically duplicates a large chunk of what the BMS does, which is to figure out the health of the battery, possibly the state of charge, and reports these new values whenever they are needed. This was a significant development effort, facilitated by a long term loan of an iMiev with replacement cells. Graeme of Oz Electric Vehicles (an EV arm of Suzi Auto, like OzDIY) told me he has sunk 6 figures into the iMiEV battery replacement project. To recoup that investment, he needs to have many customers have their battery upgraded, and Francisco's code and PCB are part of this. There is also the cruise control and one pedal driving, sold as separate upgrades. See https://www.ozelectricvehicles.com/upgrades . It looks like Graeme is choosing not to sell the BMS replacement code at this point.

The reason is obvious; other companies could copy the code and provide a similar upgrade service for less money, not having had to pay the significant cost of development. That would be an unfair advantage to those other companies.

I know that there are plenty of people that would like to have a go at upgrading their iMiEV battery themselves, and believe that they can save a considerable amount of money in the process. But there is a lot of work involved, and it has to be paid for somehow. I think it's great that Oz Electric Vehicles are offering this service, and I wish them well with the project. I don't think it's fair to ask for details on how it was done.

To be clear: if you want the battery cells, these are custom manufactured for Oz Electric Vehicles, and can't be bought off the shelf. You have to get them through Oz Electric Vehicles, at present only as part of an upgrade service.

If you want the CAN device, again, you can only at present get this as part of an upgrade.

Anyone is of course able to attempt to find their own cells, adapt them to their vehicles, and figure out their own CAN device, and share what they figure out with others. But it will be a lot of work, and Francisco's work is not of that nature.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by coulomb »

drcat wrote: Fri, 07 Jan 2022, 04:29 @francisco.shi could you please share the exact CAN packets / bytes to patch with a bridge?
As posted above, it's not possible to reveal all the details.
I want two things patched I can see with a scanner:
-The Ah capacity reported by BMU
-The maximum charge current - I believe its reported as well.

I think that information is already known; see this earlier post. Based on information from this post.
MG ZS EV 2021 April 2021.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by drcat »

It's very personal thing to share what you've discovered or hide it generally.
Australia seems to be very different world and mievs could be something widely used (I doubt how many kits those guys would be able to sell)
For me - its only a hobby thing. I'm not selling cruise control units at $900. I've developed one for renault Global Access vehicles (1G duster / logan) and released opensource (you can find on my github) and using it for daily highway driving for few years already. I'm going to develop a solution for two problems so far: allow mievs to run till death instead of shutting down due to wrong capacity reported out by BMU (for battery upgrades enthusiasts are doing here and there) without any care about an adequate dash prognosis and (may be) to solve the dumb p1a15 problem (undercharging capacitor) by faking BMU to think its fine (unless there's a real high voltage gap there between bat and cap) with just a can bridge.
Seriously I wonder who are those mysterious upgrades buyers... when a new changan e-star costs $10k approx and runs over 300km, what's the benefit of a 10 y.o. miev? Not sure about custom clearance fees in Australia if that's the case.

But thanks for the information - I've got half of what I need. Long thing short

Code: Select all

374 (D1 -10)/2 = SoC
374 D7/2 = C
373: (((D3 * 256) + D4) - 32768) * -0.01 = Pack Amps Out (#)
373: ((D5 * 256) + D6) * 0.1 = Pack Volts (#)
Now I need current, bat voltage and capacitor voltage :)
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by rhills »

drcat wrote: Sat, 08 Jan 2022, 01:27 Seriously I wonder who are those mysterious upgrades buyers... when a new changan e-star costs $10k approx and runs over 300km, what's the benefit of a 10 y.o. miev? Not sure about custom clearance fees in Australia if that's the case.
I, for one, would be in the market for one of these upgrades and I don't have the time or the technical ability to do it myself. I do appreciate the world-benefit of keeping old things running as long as possible and for me that is a higher priority than pure cost.

IMHO, Australia is in the supply-chain/political pickle that we are in because too many Aussies just look at the up front $$$ without thinking about the bigger societal benefits of buying and supporting local businesses.

(climbs down off the soapbox)
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by mark_hetho »

drcat wrote: Sat, 08 Jan 2022, 01:27when a new changan e-star costs $10k approx and runs over 300km, what's the benefit of a 10 y.o. miev? Not sure about custom clearance fees in Australia if that's the case.
A changan e-star can't be driven on Australian roads, but the miev can, so I guess that is a bit of a benefit of the miev. It depends a bit on how you run the numbers, but the miev battery upgrade is still cheap motoring. You occasionally see a Leaf for under $15K, but it's going to have less range than the miev with an upgraded battery.

I'm in the camp of thinking that the investment made in developing the upgrade deserves every chance of paying off.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by drcat »

mark_hetho wrote: Sat, 08 Jan 2022, 13:17 A changan e-star can't be driven on Australian roads, but the miev can, so I guess that is a bit of a benefit of the miev. It depends a bit on how you run the numbers, but the miev battery upgrade is still cheap motoring. You occasionally see a Leaf for under $15K, but it's going to have less range than the miev with an upgraded battery.

I'm in the camp of thinking that the investment made in developing the upgrade deserves every chance of paying off.
All right, I'm from the LHD european world. 3rd world in global pyramid. LHD leaf ZEO costs start from 5k, AZEO from 6k. Those will have no serious crashes in history and <100kkm mileage and 50-70km funny range. In Russia its legal to drive RHD despite its an LHD country and RHDs are even cheaper. The benefit of Leaf is that its pretty well reverse-engineered already and there're all sorts of firmware patches to make it running with just two wires attached from inverter to bat almost literally. Tons of cheap junk body parts, cheap suspension parts etc.

MIEV is an M in BDSM. Front shocks costs like its a bugatti not mitsu. Not widely spreaded thus tricky to quickly find a used body part after a small collision. Faulty differential, picky and touchy EV electronics. Anyway I'm proud of owning it and screwing around with it :)

Now about bat upgrades to be on topic: the CATLs cost here is approx. $150 - 160 per kwh. If you need a 30kwh bat its about 5k including delivery from China. I doubt its possible to reasonably easily fit more then 25 into MIEVs battery shell.

Local workshops suggest repacking for ~$1k equivalent thus the upgrade cost is seriously under 12k and very reasonable.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by antiscab »

I wish we had that much choice and access to cheap batteries in Australia.
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brendon_m
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by brendon_m »

Yeah, that and used OEM EV components in general. I swear all the European/US EV conversions start with someone buying a Leaf for $1000 bucks or similar
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by jonescg »

And here a crapped out 2012 Leaf with 60 km range goes for $15k...
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by francisco.shi »

The battery that Grahame offers is 94Ah 88 cell. That is 30.2kwh. As you say not easy that is why it costs more. Try and fit that in and see how much time and money you spend, unless you are willing to work for free.
There is no way we can get batteries delivered in Australia for A$160/kWh. That would make a 94Ah cell A$53. I have never seen a cell this cheap.
Your $1000 repacked pack will give you 240km range?
I very much doubt it will.
240km range is comparable to a new MG ZS EV. At $12k that would put an Imiev with a replacement battery at close to half the price of an MG for the same range. It seems a good deal to me.
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Re: Aftermarket iMiEV battery upgrade project

Post by drcat »

francisco.shi wrote: Sat, 08 Jan 2022, 21:09 Your $1000 repacked pack will give you 240km range?
$1k for repacking labour.
and $3.8k for cells
will bring you 240 km for sure.
If you mean your hacking can bridge solution - noone cares about MIEVs. There're solutions for Leafs.
Google what Ukranians do to Leafs - those guys are using LG Chem packets which are even cheaper if buying a bulk.
$30 per 60Ah cell. Interpolating, that should be $50 for 95. Then x 88 its under $4.5k - still the same price range.
I doubt how long LGChem will last under heavy conditions like cold, heat and high currents beyond their dataseet recomendations but so far all of them are still happy after couple years.

My damn hybrid board started diying now. Reports 336V via CAN and measured 348 on the AC connector. Ready is not achieveable randomly now. Before MIEVs I have never heard of ADCs failing massively. :( That is why MIEV stands for M...

Anyone knows the pid/offset for the capasitor voltage on the bus? Want to spoof it to convince EV-ECU to start.
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