charging infrastructure vision

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localpower
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charging infrastructure vision

Post by localpower »

WA seems to be advocating fast DC charging in 35 towns in their south west.

What is the AEVA charging vision for South East Queensland?
Brisbane CBD, Bayside, Ipswich, Northside, Gold Coast, Toowoomba, Sunshine Coast?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-18/p ... wa/5329442
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Post by Troglodyte »

The only ones of which I'm aware are one at Molendinar, one at Darra or thereabouts, one at Moorooka, one at Herston / Windsor, two at Forest Glen & one at Maroochydore. It would be nice if EV tragics were amenable to establishing charge points at their places of business (dunno that most local authorities would allow residential areas to be used for 'commercial' purposes. I haven't had a good look at any of the commercially available charging gizmos, but surely they must have some form of access control & hopefully a mechanism to accept payment. Personally I'd hate to see charging points monopolized by money-grabbing opportunists but there can't be any serious objection to covering costs, especially given the scandalous prices we are being slugged for electrons.
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Post by localpower »

there is 8 listed in SEQ, but I think they are all J1772 30A, so limited to around 7kW. WA is pushing for DC charging which would be around 50kW.

https://www.chargepoint.net.au/charge_point
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Post by Gabz »

this is the only plan i know for Qld and its not much of a plan.
http://youtu.be/WQpQplPv4_s

Last edited by Gabz on Wed, 19 Mar 2014, 07:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Troglodyte »

Ah yes, the John Oxley one .... is that publicly accessible ?? For some reason I can't recall, I thought it was restricted to tenants or something.
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Post by offgridQLD »

when we are talking about a public charging freeway to extend the practical range of our ev's. DC fast charging 30kw+ is the only way to go. Hanging around all day or night while your ev trickle charges on a 15A or even a 30A AC socket isn't fun or practical for the individual charging for hr's and not to mention the next person in line who needs to be there double the time.


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Post by jonescg »

I strongly suggest you get active now and start making a plan while there is momentum. We've obviously started something over here in the West which has some strong support. We still don't have a funding source, but that will be completely absent until we have a final plan laid out. That's pretty close, but ultimately you will need to start with a simple vision.

One thing that you must remember is that there is no business case for selling electricity to motorists as a sole income source. You need to market the tourism / stop revive survive / community driving angle.

I for one would love to see a DC fast charger at Aratula so you can get a good charge before heading up the gap. My family live on the Darling Downs, so an electric Cunningham Highway would be pretty handy.

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Post by Troglodyte »

'I for one would love to see a DC fast charger at Aratula so you can get a good charge before heading up the gap. My family live on the Darling Downs, so an electric Cunningham Highway would be pretty handy'

Do you really expect a business to fork out $40,000 or more (which appears to be the going price for such things) for a device that most if not all users expect to be provided scot free ?? Exactly how many EVs would use that particular road & how much would they spend at whatever business ?? Sure it would 'be nice' but I don't know that many businesses in Aratula would see the value in the proposal, at least not until there are enough EVs using (and paying) to render it financially viable& thats not going to be this year or even the next. As I've said elsewhere, I'm quite happy to give EV users access to a 30 amp GPO at my abode but only if they pay for the electrons (cost price, I don't expect to make a profit).
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Post by jonescg »

Troglodyte wrote:Do you really expect a business to fork out $40,000 or more (which appears to be the going price for such things) for a device that most if not all users expect to be provided scot free ??...


No. I wouldn't expect them to fork out for the entire cost of the unit. But we hope that the regional council, Main Roads, local contractors, state government departments, corporations and the AEVA might pool their efforts and make it far more affordable.

If the region doesn't want them, they won't build them. Sounds fair to me. It would be a shame to have SE Qld known as the most EV unfriendly place in Oz though.

If we can start with lower powered units with room for a fast charger, it's probably got a better chance of taking off.
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Post by acmotor »

Devil's advocate time.....

It doesn't help when the abc news article at the top of this thread reported 125km range for a converted focus. Who was the EV person that fed that misleading info ?
Guys, be honest if you want to get the country on board.

It is still very chicken and egg.
In a long conversation with a local councillor recently, who was quite receptive to start with, the bottom line questions were asked of me.
How many EVs are there on the road ?
700..... in Oz I answered.
But how many in WA, capable of reaching our shire ?
Head drops. maybe 30
.... and how many visit now ?
Er um .............. one.... that doesn't need charge in town...... but wait, there was another, on two occasions last year !

Yes, maybe it is about vision but at that point the conversation went cold.
The Shire does have 10 x 15A public access power points at the show ground in the middle of town that the Shire Pres. says go for it.

So good advice is go out and buy / convert an EV and boost the numbers.
...and a hybrid does not help the cause.

Hey Chris, where is your Model S ?    oops, wouldn't need all those FCs then. Perhaps that is part of the rollout problem for FCs ?

I 100% support the FC charging highway, but it is going to be a hard sell. Good on you Chris !
Maybe vote for Clive, he could a sympathetic ear ?
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Post by jonescg »

acmotor wrote: Devil's advocate time.....

Hey Chris, where is your Model S ?    oops, wouldn't need all those FCs then. Perhaps that is part of the rollout problem for FCs ?


Why then do we have petrol filling stations every 30 km or so, despite most vehicles capable of driving 600 km to 1000 km on a tank?

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Post by offgridQLD »

The thing with a service station is the sale of fuel is not a big part of the business. It might be what attracts people to the pemisis but its the ice creams, milk , potato chips and soft drinks that make viable.

Perhaps if the fast charger where a 50kw vending machine they would work well.

Kurt


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Post by g4qber »

http://www.recargo.com/sites/8231

Ac please send link to the councillor
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Post by acmotor »

Yes, thanks acmotor for establishing that EV charge permission with the Shire and telling g4qber Image

Chris, the large number of fuel stations is commercial, you understand that. They have a high turn over valuable product to sell. Massive cash turnover, multiple suppliers and customers who don't demand economy or plan their trips/purchases.
Suggest to a prospective FC installer that they can make $20 off every one of the millions of EVs that will call into their facility and they will listen. Remind them that customers want power for free or utility cost and are not at all committed to buying from a 'service station' in the first place and the interest will vanish.

One very big difference with EVs is that you have a filling station at home and in general are not committed to buying fuel that you can't make yourself.

I'd be carefull with throw away lines and comparisions of apples and oranges.

Hey, I'm all for EVs and FCs and so on, but you have to get your arguments up to speed if you are going to sell the world on EVs. IMHO

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Post by offgridQLD »

If the manufactures wanted to sell more BEV's in AU they would be putting in more effort to advertise them.

Every week I have to put up with 3000,0000000 Mazda 3 commercials on TV, radio, pandora, web page banners you name it they are ramming that model car down our necks, It's popular and profitable for them. They will keep feeding us that rubbish. The car manufactures couldnt give a toss if the machines they sell run on baby dolphin oil as long as its going to make them $.

At the moment fuel is inexpensive (relatively speaking)In australia Our citys are not that polluted (some cities where you can't see the sun or breath from the pollution or fuel cost $3 lt it's a much easier proposition.

It will happen it's just going to take some time. Like most things Au is behind the rest of the world by 10 years.

When I think about the millions upon millions of dollars that were spent in Brisbane placing shared publicly accessible push bikes all over the city. That no one uses and it was a complete wast of money.

So spending a few million of fast chargers that for some time only a hand full of people will use isn't so bad.

Kurt





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Post by jonescg »

Tuarn, have I ever suggested that any of your points above are not valid? Do you seriously think that we've completely missed these points? Or that we don't understand the challenges?

By the way, Patti actually gets about 130 km from her Focus. Easily 100 km at highway speeds. Ring her up if you still don't believe.
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Post by acmotor »

jonescg wrote: Tuarn, have I ever suggested that any of your points above are not valid? Do you seriously think that we've completely missed these points? Or that we don't understand the challenges?

By the way, Patti actually gets about 130 km from her Focus. Easily 100 km at highway speeds. Ring her up if you still don't believe.


No, it was just that you threw a line at me about service stations that was cringeworthy in logic. I would hope you don't use it in public.

Well there you go 100km range at highway speeds, the abc report was about a charging highway wasn't it ? Image
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Post by jonescg »

Perhaps you can explain the logic and context behind your comment that a Tesla S wouldn't need a fast charging network, and that it could be an impediment to rolling out such a network? This seems somewhat at odds with Tesla's own network of fast chargers...
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Post by acmotor »

It has been noted, perhaps by you too, that the EV rollout will come very much of age when the battery range is heading for 1000km.

Basically, once you have home as one charging point (unlike the situation with petrol stations and ICEs where you almost need a station next to your house), the layout for FCs will be a very different game.

If nearly every house and business is a 'fuel' station and your EV will drive further than you can (should) in a day, filling stations will just not be the same or required in the same way.
e.g. the planned charging highway (that I totally want now) will be redundant. Perhaps not for crossing the paddock.

I guess I am seeing the public charging as a temporary thing on the way to a true EV world. So if we are to have a charging highway it needs to be soon as it will likely have a use by date..... like hybrids.   Image

There is another issue that the more people are discouraged from home and renewables charging then the more likely that govt and commercial interests will be planning to tax your energy. Well that part may be enevitable. But I consider that sustainability begins at home. Image
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Post by coulomb »

offgridQLD wrote: When I think about the millions upon millions of dollars that were spent in Brisbane placing shared publicly accessible push bikes all over the city. That no one uses and it was a complete wast of money.

I believe that the CityCycle business is handled by a private company. A big part of the agreement is that the provider gets many prime locations for advertising. A few of these have to be advertising the CityCycle service itself, but most are just commercials. From what I hear, virtually all the money is in the advertising. So this is just a greenwashing exercise, if my information is correct.

The bikes do get used, but take-up is very modest. I would not call it a complete waste of money, just capitalism doing its thing.

To get back to topic, I wonder if a similar deal can be done for the fast chargers. The business gets prime advertising locations, EVers get fast chargers that would otherwise be difficult to fund, and councils are seen to be supporting an environmental effort. I'm not sure that I would want this, but it's a possible funding model. Of course, a fast charger station probably costs a lot more than twenty bicycles, so it may never work out economically.
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Post by offgridQLD »

While they look basic. I would say each bike would be $1000+ then you have the docking system for each bike. Not to mention the electronic vending box next to each group of bikes that you use to hire one . I would say one bike hire station would be more expensive than a fast charger.

I find it funny when I say I drive from Brisbane to Adelaide in two days . 2200km Roughly 12 hrs on the road each day. Most people reply with we would break that trip up into 4 days roughly 550km a day. A lot of people consider that a good run for a days driving. So I don't think 1000km is even needed. half that at 500 km with hotel charging while you sleep would cover most poeple.

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Post by g4qber »

ac just wanted to point out that I visited Bindoon 4x last year.

perhaps would be good if other EV owners would register their charging on recargo so that there is a record of goings on.

UWA probably have records but recargo is publicly accessible.

Matt C is currently doing this at the Regal Place City of Perth carpark
I'm trying to encourage BGA to do it at the PTA.

Today plucked up the courage to do a Northam trip. Said 117 km on range meter, due to travelling at 70kmh last night back home.
111.4 km @ 70kmh, letting faster traffic go by when necessary by stopping on side roads / rest stops.
Arrived with 1bar & flashing petrol symbol, but no turtle.

Met up with Peter whom I met last year. Rode up to his place on folding bike.

Met up with Tom & Lois who know Ralph the 2CV guy.
Also had Patrick from Germany.
Tom had a short ride to his house in the imiev.

Mentioned the electric highway to Tom & Peter. They both agreed that Baker's Hill would be a good site as well as Northam if possible.
This is probably a good idea as at freeway speeds, Baker's Hill would be within safe range of imiev.

had lunch at the Riverside Hotel, will leave negotiations to Graeme.
New owners are doing the place up.
They have free wifi

Left for Home but wasn't full battery, so got back home with no bars left. Next time will leave till fully charged.

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Post by jonescg »

acmotor wrote: It has been noted, perhaps by you too, that the EV rollout will come very much of age when the battery range is heading for 1000km.

Basically, once you have home as one charging point (unlike the situation with petrol stations and ICEs where you almost need a station next to your house), the layout for FCs will be a very different game.

If nearly every house and business is a 'fuel' station and your EV will drive further than you can (should) in a day, filling stations will just not be the same or required in the same way.
e.g. the planned charging highway (that I totally want now) will be redundant. Perhaps not for crossing the paddock.

I guess I am seeing the public charging as a temporary thing on the way to a true EV world. So if we are to have a charging highway it needs to be soon as it will likely have a use by date..... like hybrids.   Image

There is another issue that the more people are discouraged from home and renewables charging then the more likely that govt and commercial interests will be planning to tax your energy. Well that part may be enevitable. But I consider that sustainability begins at home. Image


That's a pretty long range crystal ball you have there. At this rate I reckon a Leaf will crack 250 km in about 3 to 5 years (for the same price point). In the next 10 years, if you want to ditch the ICE altogether, you're going to need some fast chargers on the road.

My car will manage a pitiful 550 km on a tank (should be more like 700) but with the abundance of filling stations around I don't need to plan my stops. There are so many of them because the millions of cars demanded this level of convenience. Similarly, a handful of DC FCs will offer convenience to the handful of EV owners well into the future. Sure, there won't be as many FCs as there are petrol pumps, even when every second car is an EV, but there will still be a need for them on longer trips.

I am very confident that any FC network built in Oz won't become stranded assets when long range EVs arrive. If anything they will probably get used more.
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Post by acmotor »

Perhaps you are right. Your vision is more short term than mine. Image

The need to FC rather than SC in a city is a hangover from petrol days.
Just picture the 1000km range EV that needs a charge every 2 weeks (coz I couldn't be bothered grabbing some SC off peak) and I must do FC now at 2pm on a Friday and I can't wait 30 minutes.
The same 1000km EV on the highway..... I'm going to MR for the weekend and I've just driven around town for 2 weeks. Hell yes that FC just down the road is all important. Shame the FC fill will cost me $200 now the revenue system has kicked in.

I'll still use an FC highway right now.
But stand by as technology flies past your imagination.   Image

Best advice..... if you want to boost Chris's confidence in an Oz FC network, buy / convert an EV NOW.
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Post by offgridQLD »

It's interesting,

Lets say you owned a modern fuel efficient car with a reasonable size tank and 1000km range. You also had a petrol pump at home that could slowly automatically fill your petrol car overnight at say 30% less cost that the petrol station. Would you visit the petrol station?

When and why would you visit the petrol station? What lengths would you go to to avoid the petrol station? Think people now go out of there way shop at particular supermarkets and them drive at particular service stations just to save 5% - 10%.

Even if there was a fast charger along my travels with the 500km or 1000km EV. If I could get to my destination and home again without needing to stop for 20 min I would do my best to do so and charge at home while I sleep.

There will always be the people who are lazy or cant plan well and need that fill NOW! and in a hurry and are willing to pay extra for that.

I still think one of the biggest road blocks for how fast we will get the advancements in EV battery technology is the alternative - (petrol) its still very affordable and being offered to us as a cheap, easy and affordable solution. Its going to have to double or triple in price before people will give up on it and demand more from EV's in a hurry.


Regarding changing the path on that range App. Instead of typing in a start and end address. Just type in the starting address then zoom in on the map use the mouse to click on the roads to create a path along the roads you want to take to the end address.


Kurt




Last edited by offgridQLD on Sun, 30 Mar 2014, 07:32, edited 1 time in total.
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