ABB reluctante motor

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Richo
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Post by Richo »

They probably are.
But for the sake of a few % eff the stock windings should be ok.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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peskanov
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Post by peskanov »

I got some prices from ABB.
For the smallest motor in catalogue (frame 160, 17 Kw) they are asking 1200E.
For the matching controller, 2000E.
Price including taxes (quite high here, about 20%).

Cheaper than I thought; more info comming soon.
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Post by Richo »

And it would be even more for us with shipping Image

Still the 160 frame is only useful for direct drive cars.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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peskanov
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Post by peskanov »

Does not ABB have an official dealer in Australia? I thinked they were present in all developed countries.
ABB Spain is not "cheap" at all, I think prices in Australia could be pretty close, despite the distance.
Anyway, the frame 160 motors are iron, as far as I know.

A poster in the DIY EV thread linked a very nice paper about this motor, check it out!
http://www.ee.kth.se/php/modules/public ... 07_011.pdf
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

Sure ABB are here but I bet it's a special order.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by T2 »

Peskanov, I didn't follow much in the link - it's almost 50yrs since I last used partial derivatives - and I didn't stay for an MSc either on account of they kicked me out !!

Nevertheless I have to query an Iraqui student with an Indian examiner at a Swedish technical institute copying Korean research papers. In case english is your second language you may not have noticed that the writing style in the abstract doesn't match that anywhere else in the report. Two years and yet no prototype constructed but copying someone else's work; passing it off as a literary review and for that you get an MSc ???

What did he do for god's sake. Perhaps Iraqui oil dollars paid for a new wing at the institute.
T2
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Richo
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ABB reluctante motor

Post by Richo »

When I saw it was 6.5MB I closed it.
Was 60% the contents and lists of figures like usual uni papers these days?
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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peskanov
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ABB reluctante motor

Post by peskanov »

T2,
I have no idea about the reals merits of the paper, but as a introductory text to reluctance motors I think it's useful. There is a nice overview of the different rotor topologies and their history. It also contains a review of the motor characteristics under different sets of design parameters.
There is a good explanation about the "ribs" design & how many of them are necessary, and also about the union points needed for mechanical reasons.

Richo,
yep, half of it are figures. But that's nice for a dilettante like me Image
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peskanov
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ABB reluctante motor

Post by peskanov »

Unfortunately, I didn't get feedback on SynRM motors using frame <160.

But today, looking for near isothermal compressors, I found one using a SR motor for efficiency purposes. External casing is the same of ACIM motors.

http://www.srdrives.com/

Rotor is the classic, rippled torque one.

Note: the compressor needs to work at different speed to follow the load, and theorically this controller/motor set allows a better all-around effciciency.

Note2: I better leave a link to the compressor and its claimed benefits over others using ACIM motors
http://www.airmac.com/pdfs/compair_oil_ ... 0_8-09.pdf
Last edited by peskanov on Thu, 13 Jun 2013, 19:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johny »

Good find peskanov. It appears that ABB are actually latecomers to the match VFD/motor system of the modern switched relunctance drives. In every case menufacturers seem to provide the motors with a matched VFD but that mob at least have a rolling EV platform for testing and with the 330NM quoted it sounds like a 15kW motor which is getting closer to our size requirements. Now for the 132 frame size.
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Post by Richo »

Ahh but it's not as pretty as the ABB rotor Image
http://www.srdrives.com/technology.shtml

Still shows that any existing Induction motor could just have the rotor replaced.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Johny »

Yeah that's an ugly rotor. Don't want no ugly rotor in my car - even if no-one but me knows it's there. Image
Um - really? I'd still like to try it.
The ABB rotor appeared to have fancy looking coppery things at each end of the rotor. I wonder what they were for.
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Post by coulomb »

Interesting that they claim "wide constant power speed region", compared to "conventional technology".
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Post by peskanov »

Out of curiosity, I checked Alibaba to see if any chinese company is manufacturing this kind of motor (the ABB one). The paper I linked previously says it has a long history, so why not try?
Jackpot! I found one, and probably two companies:

- First one builds motors up to 11KW, 4 or 6 poles. The rotor is anisotropic like the SynRM (but maybe not so optimized?). Prices under $1k I think.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/51998 ... 0_075.html

- Second one says "constant torque". That could mean anything, so maybe it does not use anisotropic rotors. This one has nearly 0 info.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/52018 ... eries.html

Any volunteer to request motor specs? I would try, but for some reason I rarely get replies from China, I guess they feel I mean "no bussines" too soon. :D

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Post by BigMouse »

Great find! I have sent an inquiry. Both those links are the same company. Their 7% response rate doesn't look promising, but I've had a go at it.
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Post by peskanov »

Oops! That's right, is the same company.
There is a little note in the page, "AR Series ISGEV".
I searched for it and found:
http://www.directindustry.com/prod/isge ... 58311.html

and the specs:

http://www.isgev.com/inglese/images/gam ... tto/23.pdf

Not very promising, the 11kw one is frame 180 Image
This motor includes an aditional squirrel cage in the rotor to help start direct inline. Seems to be a legacy feature, as the the catalogue mentions using the motor with a inverter.
The torque graph looks intriguing, I have the feeling torque can be massively overloaded on this one.
Last edited by peskanov on Sat, 15 Jun 2013, 12:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BigMouse »

Ouch, yeah those specs are no good. The ABB still looks promising though. Did anyone find torque numbers for it?
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Post by peskanov »

Today I found this 2013 ABB catalogue (includes prices: rare).

http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot28 ... t_2013.pdf

Theres is a bit of info about the high performance SynRM line (page 9):

"The SynRM package has a high output variant that produces
the same power as traditional asynchronous AC motors but
in mechanical frames which are
two sizes smaller. This high output
variant also boasts IE3 efficiency
figures. The high output motor
is suitable for OEM and machine
builders who have limited physical
space.
The second high efficiency variant has the same physical
dimensions as a standard asynchronous AC motor but is able
to achieve IE4 efficiency, which is ideal for minimising energy
usage in fan and pump applications. The SynRM package
requires an ABB variable-speed drive to control the speed of
the shaft. Depending on the required application, ABB can
choose from a number of drives that can control the
SynRM motor."

...but they don't list SynRM products in the cataloge. Such a tease...
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Post by BigMouse »

Hey guys. Just a quick note about these motors. I had a chance to chat with the manager of motors and drives for ABB Australia today and I asked him about these motors and their drives. He said that they're really only suited for "increasing torque" applications such as fans and pumps. He also gave me the tidbit of information that the drives use the DTC algorithm.

He also confirmed that the motors are not normally sold without the drive, except for spares. He did however say that some customers had purchased the motors with plans of using them with other drives. He was very specific to say that ABB does not provide any support for such applications.

That's what I got from the brief conversation that I had with him today, in case it's of interest to folks on here.
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Post by peskanov »

Nice info. Now I wonder what "only for increasing torque" means...Low torque at low revs, maybe? I know there are motors specially suited for pumps/fans, but I ignore which specific problems these motors could have in a traction application.

Meanwhile, it seems than GM shows some confidence in his reluctance+permanent magnet motors. The new Chevy Spark is using the same motor as the Volt.
There is some info about these motors here:
http://sites.ieee.org/miami/files/2013/ ... 2013-1.pdf
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Post by BigMouse »

peskanov wrote: Nice info. Now I wonder what "only for increasing torque" means...Low torque at low revs, maybe? I know there are motors specially suited for pumps/fans, but I ignore which specific problems these motors could have in a traction application.

Meanwhile, it seems than GM shows some confidence in his reluctance+permanent magnet motors. The new Chevy Spark is using the same motor as the Volt.
There is some info about these motors here:
http://sites.ieee.org/miami/files/2013/ ... 2013-1.pdf


Yes, low starting torque requirements.

Pretty much every hybrid or electric vehicle out there today uses a IPM (reluctance/magnet) motor. Only exceptions off the top of my head are Tesla (induction) and Honda's IMA (PM-BLDC).
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Post by peskanov »

Some news on ABB synchronous reluctance motors. They are selling now the small frame models, an these look quite interesting:

http://www.abb.es/product/us/9AAC171953.aspx?country=GB

Some highlights:

There are 2 classes, insulation B and F. I guess B class is cheaper, but I still have no prices.
Class B has few models on aluminium and small frame.

Image

Class F is more interesting, 2 poles are:

Image

And 4 poles:

Image

It's interesting that 4 poles have the same power than 2 poles (at the same RPMs), exactly.
ie: M3AL 132 SMF4 is 18.5 KW in 4 poles version, and 37 KW in 2 poles version.

Also, I found interesting max. torque is always just 1.5x nominal torque. Not much, maybe because the rotor is fragile?
Still, this 132 model is pretty nice with 37 KW continuous and max torque at 180 NM, in just 90KG.

There are some nice efficiency maps on the pdf. I see the motor shines on low revs and low torque.
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Post by Richo »

And the rotor inertia is the same between 2-pole and 4-pole.
Suggesting the same rotor but just different windings.
If it was me I'd still get the 4-pole.
In comparison to my 4kW ACIM 41kg vs M3AL 5.5kW 33kg in the same 112-frame.
Unfortunately the low 1.5 Tm/Tn doesn't make up the extra peak power my ACIM could make.
So I don't think the efficiency gain and lower weight doesn't really offset the peak power needed for a vehicle.

I'd have to go up to the 11kW unit with a penalty of 16kg for the same peak power.

The bigger motors do look more appealing for direct drive systems.
The 18.5kW 4-pole 89kg is in a frame smaller and 20kg lighter than the typical ACIM's.
The sacrifice will be half the normal peak power of a ACIM.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Johny »

I don't think they are panning out well for EVs. Peak power is really important.
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Post by peskanov »

Johnny,
Peak torque seems pretty close to industrial induction motors having same size/weight. But is clearly lower than the best ones.
However, driving an induction motor over nominal torque seems to be quite inefficient.

For a medium sized car, this motor looks like a winner to me.
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