ABB reluctante motor

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peskanov
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ABB reluctante motor

Post by peskanov »

Hi there! I have not posted here for a while, but I am still toying with EVs (right now, placing a Curtis 1236 into our quad conversion).

I found an interesting industrial motor recently and posted a thread on DIY EV. I thinked most people on this forums could be interested also, as many of you are working with industrial ACIM, so I am posting the links here.

First, the thread on the other forum:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/sh ... post354237

and now the product itself:

Image

http://www.abb.com/product/seitp322/51c ... anguage=us

What do you think, could a Tritium drive this motor? Or maybe another controller, outside ABB?
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

As a comparison I have a 4kW unit 112-Frame 40kg
The ABB reluctance motor is 100-Frame and 22kg.
Bit smaller, much lighter with a few % gain on efficiency.
However I don't know what the Tm/Tn would be like.
I suspect worse than my ACIM which would imply the use of a 5.5kW or 7.5kW.

I couldn't see any firm specs of the 11kW unit as this may be a good eV size.

Interesting that they say they are going to make 11kW+ anyway.
The 160-frame 26kW is really too big for an eV at 180kg!
Last edited by Richo on Mon, 27 May 2013, 10:47, edited 1 time in total.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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peskanov
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ABB reluctante motor

Post by peskanov »

I did not find many specs for the motors; there is a small list here:

http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot23 ... 12_WEB.pdf

It says for frame 160 (smallest referenced) specs are 130KG/33KW/2 poles. No max. torque specified.
This is the iron model; ABB mentions aluminum models are available. And, as you said, a 132 frame 11KW model is mentioned.

I think I will request some info this week, pricing, aluminium option, small frames...

The rotor is mostly empty, it looks fragile and that could mechanically limit the torque.
In the other hand, it seems very cheap to produce (just laminated, stamped and pressed steel); this tech. could be a winner in cost terms!


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Post by BigMouse »

peskanov wrote:I think I will request some info this week, pricing, aluminium option, small frames...


I'd be interested to see if they'll even sell you the motor without the controller packaged with it. I expect they would, for spares and replacement purposes, but I wouldn't be surprised if they hesitate.
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Post by PlanB »

Finally, an explanation of saliency I think I understand http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot23 ... rticle.pdf

Also no back EMF means field weakening not required, right TJ?
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Post by Johny »

PlanB wrote:Also no back EMF means field weakening not required, right TJ?
I think it's a marketing misquote. The back EMF is much the same as an ACIM. They are referring to the safety aspects when comparing to a permanent magnet motor. It still uses field weakening.

...control also includes capabilities for the field weakening range, ie the speed range above the nominal rated speed.
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Post by Johny »

This is interesting - later in the document.
A standard IM fitted with a new rotor, combined with a standard drive with new software, results in a high output, high efficiency VSD system.
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Post by PlanB »

So these won't spin up DOL. What exactly is it a VSD does that get's them rotating under load?
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Post by Johny »

Just spins them up with nearer to correct V/Hz so all the CBs in the factory don't trip. Bloody nice motor. Very perfect for EVs.
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Post by Richo »

I also have concerns about the rotor structure being weak.
And I doubt the Tm/Tn will be that great as a result.

But I do agree that they could have a good potential for an ev.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by BigMouse »

If the power is double that of a similar size frame for the same speed, then the rated torque will also be double. If the Tm/Tn is only 1.5 on one of these instead of 2 (for an ACIM), then you're still coming out ahead.
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peskanov
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Post by peskanov »

Curious, in the "ABB review" article they quote the heaviest frame 160 70kw motor as weighting only 67 kg.
In the catalogue, no frame 160 motor reaches that power, and minimun weight is 130 kg.

Maybe ABB shied away from the original ratings? Or maybe there is high performance line in the works?
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Post by Richo »

BigMouse wrote:If the Tm/Tn is only 1.5 on one of these instead of 2 (for an ACIM), then you're still coming out ahead.


Perhaps - But even the bottom end crap ACIM are more like 2.5 and average are typically more like 3.0-3.5 and top end over 4.

Until ABB release more definite specs it's all guess work anyway.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Johny
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Post by Johny »

I can't find any product specification about this motor/drive package. Just markety stuff.
I don't much like the way they ducked and weaved around this question:
"Is it expensive?
How about focusing on value? Does the package deliver proper value? Value of solutions increasing energy efficiency.....


Has anyone found a specification sheet yet? It's going to be difficult to isolate the motor specs from the VFD of course.
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peskanov
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Post by peskanov »

Well, I requested some info. Let's see if I get something.

Meanwhile, reading the available info I found a few interesting points:

- Works OK sensorless. In fact, ABB sells the system sensorless.
- Efficiency gains vs IM motors are larger in the smaller motors. The rotor keeps cooler.
- Accelerates faster, as rotor weights about 1/2 of squirrel cages & magnet rotors. Inertia moment is much inferior.
- ABB says the rotor is more robust than the squirrel cage equivalent. Hard to believe, but that's what they say.
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Post by luke_jenson »

ABB manufacture some great motors & drives but they tend to be more expensive. Take a look at FUJI or Hitachi drives. They are much cheaper than comparable ABB drives.

http://www.clrwtr.com/Hitachi-Drives.htm

http://www.ctiautomation.net/FUJI-Inverters.htm
Last edited by luke_jenson on Sun, 02 Jun 2013, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johny »

luke_jenson wrote: ABB manufacture some great motors & drives but they tend to be more expensive. Take a look at FUJI or Hitachi drives. They are much cheaper than comparable ABB drives.
Hi Luke and welcome to the forum. The forum editor is a bit finicky regarding links. You have to be in the Full Reply Editor to successfully post links. Thats the up-to-the-right arrow - the right hand button.
http://www.clrwtr.com/Hitachi-Drives.htm
http://www.ctiautomation.net/FUJI-Inverters.htm
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Post by Richo »

Actually it's just a space between the brackets in the link.
When clicking to insert a link it has a default space in there already.
SO if you don't remove it then it won't work.

The ascii for a space is 20 so when you move over the link you will see the %20 - a space " ".

Yeah I find it hard to believe that the new rotor is more robust.
Perhaps this is because it is an extruded single piece rather than composites.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Johny »

Richo wrote:Perhaps this is because it is an extruded single piece rather than composites.
I guess since it's lighter there are less forces trying to tear it apart. For those who want to run the RPM through the roof it may be challenging though.
I'm musing what changes would have to made to a VFD FOC algorithm to run one of these motors and whether a standard high-end VFD might be convinced to run one (many VFDs can already run sychronous and asychronous motors).

Next on my "I'm wondering" list is how long it would take a Taiwanese manufacturer to reverse engineer the rotor for fitting into an existing 132 frame motor that might already be in an EV.
Just wondering...
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Post by Richo »

Image Ah you were reading my mind

Maybe some uni student can do it for thier thesis and provide some modelling insight.

Worst case could always stick some hallies on it Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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peskanov
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Post by peskanov »

Some info I googled, while waiting ABB feedback.

There is another company offering the same technology (same pattern in the rotor), since 2009.

http://fluidfuture.ksb.com/en/fluidfutu ... -supremeR/

They claim torque ripple is 1-2%. Another interesting piece of info I noticed: ABB claims their inverter algor. is necesary to obtain the efficicency benefits; however, these guys talk about their inverter as nothing special. They just say something like "ours work with reluctance motors, others don't".
From this page I learned the tech is patented as no. 5818140 (in 1998!).

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=pate ... 818140.pdf

By this Italian guy which looks as some kind of unhappy genius.

http://www.eng.eventi.unicas.it/Europea ... edo-Vagati
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Post by Johny »

Good research there peskanov. It's almost the identical rotor!
I hope he is happier now that ABB is paying him royalties - well at least they SHOULD be - unless...
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Post by BigMouse »

This is very interesting. I'm very curious to find out why we haven't heard about this in EVs as of yet. Once I prove my controller on a normal ACIM, I'd be very interested in playing with one of these. A very (VERY) brief glance at the theory suggests that FOC should work, and would be easy with rotor position sensing since it's synchronous by nature, so no pesky rotor time constants or slip calculations. I want one!

I wonder if it's possible to buy just the rotor. Are rotors normally interchangeable between motors of the same frame size (different manufacturers)?

EDIT: From the inventor's profile, it sounds like this may be simlar to the motors used in the Prius and other hybrids that use IPM motors, only without the magnets.
Last edited by BigMouse on Fri, 31 May 2013, 06:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Richo »

You'd be very lucky if the rotors were interchangeable between brands.
As mentioned before the motors were of little use DOL so not popular.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Johny »

I emailed my contact at Qin Wei Motor manufacturer last week and received a reply today:

Dear Mr. John :

Good day to you. It is my highly pleasure to contact with you.
This is Daniel on behalf of Qin Wei Electric Corp.

First of all, I am sorry to inform you that Eugenia had left since last July.

I will in charge of your case from now on.

The ABB website shows IE4 motor which is super premium efficiency motor.
We believe that not only rotor but also stator and wire winding are all different.

Thank you.
Best Regards

So they think it's more than just the rotor.
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