EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by coulomb » Mon, 19 Nov 2012, 04:59

Stiive wrote: FYI
Got this response back from Jack :-
Jack wrote: Discounts for bulk purchases are certainly appropriate when you want to move a lot of volume. This is almost the opposite situation. We got the last 55 motors on the planet.   When they're gone, they're gone. I can't replace them with Siemens.
Huh. Jack seems to have the idea that these motors were custom made for Azure Dynamics. But the motor I have here proves that this can't be the case. I don't understand how he can believe that he has the only 55 that came from AZD as well.

Maybe there is some slight variation between these AZD and other 1PV5135-4WS14 motors, but I don't think so.

Well, he's right in that he can't replace them at the same price. Perhaps he can afford to sit on large quantities of these motors for some time; others who won palettes of the same motor will be more interested in offloading at least some of them quickly and therefore cheaply.
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by jonescg » Mon, 19 Nov 2012, 05:35

At $6000 rrp for a 100 kW motor the size of a Mack Truck, An Evo looks pretty good on paper.

Just goes to show how inexpensive the ingredients are for these big AC motors. Even cheaper if you have a giant factory like Siemens to wind them. My motor is only $11,000 because it was one of a few dozen hand made this year. Hopefully their prices will come down since they teamed up with GKN, but the chances of a one-off order are slim to none.

Good luck with the order, guys!
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by Stiive » Mon, 19 Nov 2012, 17:05

coulomb wrote:
Well, he's right in that he can't replace them at the same price. Perhaps he can afford to sit on large quantities of these motors for some time; others who won palettes of the same motor will be more interested in offloading at least some of them quickly and therefore cheaply.


Yup. I think the low hanging fruit of people who are actively planning an AC conversion this instant will dry up very quickly. ATM the system is still priced above DC, who knows what he's gonna sell the controllers for.

There's got to be at least 100 of this motors circulating at the moment, and there's probably only ~100 DIY conversions a year done in total (DC & AC), probably less now that are actually OEM EVs on the market to buy.

I'm happy to play the waiting game, i only wanted to see how hard I can push the motor with my controller - this is not a critical thing in my life, so I'm not gonna pay through the teeth to do it.
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by Stiive » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 00:09

Getting closer... Received this email today

"1 motor EUR 2700
5 motors EUR 2100
10 motors EUR 1700
20 motors EUR 1300

These are EX-WORKS prices so excl. shipping. To help you a bit, I would offer you the 5 motors at DDU (Delivery Duty Unpaid) service. That means shipping by air to any airport close to you is included but the import tax and other local taxes of course you have to pay yourself."



Also, got this response from Jack

No, we bought all but four or five of the motors. Same with the controllers. There were clearly some individuals that just wanted to pick up a motor and controller and I didn't bid against them at all. Just on the large lots and two kind of not new looking ones that were going begging. But we got all the block lots. Same with the chargers. One 48 unit block. We didn't bid on any of the individual or pairs that guys were trying to pick up for a car. And they tended to go higher of course. But you could have easlily bid on one of those. I think Hauber got two motors and two controllers.


I'd like to get it puzzled out so they are useful devices that CAN be used in conversions - but at a price more like what we are accustomed to paying for a Warp 11 or something similar. I think it will lead to some great builds and specifically don't want them goint to junk piles and experiments.    We just hear from a lot of people that are looking for a powerful OEM class AC solution but under $10K for the package. That's been more or less unobtainium except for the HPEVS stuff which as I've said many times, I really do like. With their AC075, that opens it up to some heavier rolling stock, but still not a 150kw peak type thing.

I DON'T want it to damage the Netgains and SOlitons and HPEVS market. And I really don't have to move them fast at all. But the interest is already pretty strong. They're handsome hardware. And I think we'll get this DMOC 645 pretty much worked out as well so it can be used in fairly plug and play fashion.


The Seimens ELFA duos will be a bit harder.

And for some reason I bought 158 cooling pumps. Imagine. One huge box of cooling pumps. Not sure what that was about. "


I really don't think he understands how many motors AD had. There was even >50 motors left over after the auction that noone bidded on. I'm sure these have also sold for dirt cheap since.
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by BigMouse » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 00:25

Thing it, regardless of how many were sold and at what price, if the people who bought them don't make them available, or make them available at fixed pricing, there's little we can do. Still, $3000 is WAY better than the $9000+ metric mind wants for them, but it's double (after shipping) what I paid for my custom wound industrial motor which will likely have better performance (though weigh more and have lower efficiency).

If I did get one, it would likely be used in a different conversion than my BMW. I'd probably take advantage of the size to find a small FWD car and make a commuter. The BMW will be all about performance and will need constant torque as high as possible, hence the low voltage windings.

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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by Stiive » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 03:07

BigMouse wrote: Thing it, regardless of how many were sold and at what price, if the people who bought them don't make them available, or make them available at fixed pricing, there's little we can do. Still, $3000 is WAY better than the $9000+ metric mind wants for them,


Yeh, im hoping like with most auctions, people bid above their means... Interest on a max credit card will soon see lower prices. Would be good to see stock numbers on Jacks website to see how fast they move.
BigMouse wrote: but it's double (after shipping) what I paid for my custom wound industrial motor which will likely have better performance (though weigh more and have lower efficiency).


TBH i doubt it... For a similar frame size the Siemens would get higher power due to being higher voltage and water cooled.
BigMouse wrote: If I did get one, it would likely be used in a different conversion than my BMW. I'd probably take advantage of the size to find a small FWD car and make a commuter. The BMW will be all about performance and will need constant torque as high as possible, hence the low voltage windings.


It shouldn't matter to you, your making your own controller and therefore decide the voltage and current of the IGBTs, get some 1200V IGBTs and then take some of your A123 out of parallel and into series to get the 600VDC.

That said, you have your motor now, and its cheaper, just work with that. Same with me, I have a decent motor for my prac, I only want one of these if I can get it cheap.

Maybe I can convince the other guy to go 1300EUR for ~5. Who would be in?
Last edited by Stiive on Mon, 19 Nov 2012, 16:09, edited 1 time in total.
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by Stiive » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 03:14

AndrewVS wrote: Our local EV group would probably be interested in a few (2-4?) sets of electric water heaters/AC compressors/PS pumps/Brusa chargers that were part of the auction if they could be bundled in to sweeten a motor group buy...


I'll also enquire about these
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Post by Stiive » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 03:28

Stiive wrote: FYI: First motor on eBay UK.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251184766149 ... 26_rdc%3D1


ATM for $1,200 AUD -> Motor + controller + other stuff.
Shipping will cost a little over $500 IMO.
May end up significantly cheaper than Jacks offer if anyone's keen - I'm not interested in the controller so I wont be bidding. \

Keep in mind though, this is the first of many sales, the price will probably come down once all the really keen people have gotten their motors/controllers.


Still at $1,200 AUD. It will be very interesting to see what this sells for.
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EOI: Potential group buy for Siemens 1PV5135motors

Post by BigMouse » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 04:14

Stiive wrote:
BigMouse wrote: but it's double (after shipping) what I paid for my custom wound industrial motor which will likely have better performance (though weigh more and have lower efficiency).


TBH i doubt it... For a similar frame size the Siemens would get higher power due to being higher voltage and water cooled.
BigMouse wrote: If I did get one, it would likely be used in a different conversion than my BMW. I'd probably take advantage of the size to find a small FWD car and make a commuter. The BMW will be all about performance and will need constant torque as high as possible, hence the low voltage windings.


It shouldn't matter to you, your making your own controller and therefore decide the voltage and current of the IGBTs, get some 1200V IGBTs and then take some of your A123 out of parallel and into series to get the 600VDC.




As you're aware, the higher power only comes with higher battery voltage when the motor voltage is higher. Lower currents are handy (lighter cabling), and easier to work with, but the high voltage rated capacitors, fuses, chargers etc are pricey. Also, anything over 400vdc scares the crap out of me. No room for error, and not forgiving at all if you make one. Those are all reasons I'm intending to keep my "fully charged" voltage below 450vdc.

My A123 18650s are only for testing and would not be used in a vehicle. Also, it's only 4ah as it is. My 400v+ elcon charges it in less than an hour. Perfect for testing, once I manage to get a working algorithm and a way to load the motor.
Stiive wrote:That said, you have your motor now, and its cheaper, just work with that. Same with me, I have a decent motor for my prac, I only want one of these if I can get it cheap.


Exactly. I don't -need- one of those motors, but it would be awesome to have if I get it cheap. I still have my eye on Coulomb's ;-)

I imagine Jack, and others who bought these up will be getting a LOT of window shoppers.

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Post by coulomb » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 05:18

I just added this to my post with the closeup of the Siemens motor encoder/thermistor connector:

Thanks to nogas of DIYelectriccar for this Ebay item that makes the search for a connector redundant.

Of course, postage is more than the cable, but still a fraction of the cost of the connector new, at least from sources I know of. "More than 10 available" as I post.

So that's one less thing to do.
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Post by coulomb » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 17:09

PlanB wrote: Are you going to ask TJ to test your sample motor with the wavescupltor Coulomb?

My motor is with Tritium now. They will get one of the cables from Ebay, so we don't have to cut wires inside this motor.

Hopefully the cable will arrive in a few days, and they can find the time to spin it up.

Unfortunately they don't have the time to do a full dyno test, but it will be nice to confirm that the inbuilt encoder works with the Wavesculptor 200.

It happens that they noticed the match between this motor and their controller, and have been approached by someone in Europe who can give them a good price for ten. They were thinking of getting the ten as a sort of service to the Australian EV community, and of course a way of selling more motor controllers, but were reluctant to order ten sight unseen. So this is all very synergistic.

I think they'll sit back and wait for the dust to settle on the motor prices before continuing... but this could be an alternative to a group buy from the USA or UK.
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Post by PlanB » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 17:20

I emailed the guy with the UK ebay lot re freight costs to Oz a few days ago but no reply. If I got a motor I feel I need that Borg Warner box too otherwise 10000RPM would having you driving around in 2nd gear all the time on a conventional transmission. Be interesting to see what sort of match it is for TJs Wavesculptor.

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Post by Stiive » Tue, 20 Nov 2012, 21:41

coulomb wrote:
PlanB wrote: It happens that they noticed the match between this motor and their controller, and have been approached by someone in Europe who can give them a good price for ten. They were thinking of getting the ten as a sort of service to the Australian EV community, and of course a way of selling more motor controllers, but were reluctant to order ten sight unseen. So this is all very synergistic.

I think they'll sit back and wait for the dust to settle on the motor prices before continuing... but this could be an alternative to a group buy from the USA or UK.


The last quote is from the same company who Tritium is talking to. I have messaged James to see if he wants to merge the group buys to get better pricing, still waiting to hear back from him.

BTW the aforementioned quotes were including warranty and support, i've been advised that the actual price will be cheaper without - and is open to negotiation.
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 21 Nov 2012, 01:55

I spent my lunch time today searching for a plug that might suit the encoder/thermistor connector on the motor (since the Ebay cable may take some time).

It's unusual, because pin 9 isn't at the same radius as pins 1-8:

Image

None of the connectors I looked at had that arrangement.

From http://www.metricmind.com/data/513x-4wsxx_drawing.pdf.

It's also frustrating because they seem to size the plugs by their overall diameter, so if you only have the socket as I have, you don't know what size will fit it.
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Post by Stiive » Wed, 21 Nov 2012, 18:44

Got another quote.
$10,000 for 6 motors. ($1,666 USD each).

Might try for $1,500 each ($9k) if we have interest for 6.
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Post by celectric » Wed, 21 Nov 2012, 19:28

Stiive wrote: Got another quote.
$10,000 for 6 motors. ($1,666 USD each).

Might try for $1,500 each ($9k) if we have interest for 6.
I would be interested at those prices.

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Post by BigMouse » Wed, 21 Nov 2012, 23:37

That's certainly reasonable. What's the shipping looking like, and to which port? Any other stuff available from this source? Power steering/Aircon/vacuum pumps, water heaters, coolant pumps, etc? I actually DO need those.

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Post by Jodie » Thu, 22 Nov 2012, 19:08

EVtv's price for controller, motor and a Borg Warner drive with adapter is $7800 delivered to Melbourne.
Still short of a VCU.

Save $100 on postage with 2!

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Post by Johny » Thu, 22 Nov 2012, 19:12

That's not a bad price. Keep in mind that port, customs and duty will increase that somewhat.
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Post by jonescg » Thu, 22 Nov 2012, 19:20

Johny wrote: That's not a bad price. Keep in mind that port, customs and duty will increase that somewhat.


I have found that unless the seller can write down the declared value, adding 30-33% to the store price is a fair guess for customs, GST and shipping.
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Post by coulomb » Fri, 23 Nov 2012, 04:53

Thanks to Rustybkts for this RS components part number: 531-807, or try this link.

Image

Image

As of this post, they have 26 in stock for overnight delivery (free shipping), at $31.30 each, which seems quite reasonable after looking at many of the $100+ industrial and even $400+ mil-spec connectors that still didn't have the right pattern.
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Post by theboatman » Fri, 23 Nov 2012, 17:46

Hi all. Long time listener, first time poster...

I've been around here for about 5 years but never posted (that I can remember) under the name thebiggerboat. I just didn't have much to contribute until I got closer to being able to start a conversion. Which I am pretty much ready to do.

I have been salivating over this motor (although the 560V+ Metric mind one) for years, and knew I'd never get one due to price. At these prices, I'm in. Assuming I have read the posts right and not missed anyone the hypothetical group buy numbers stand at this (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Up to $2K: Four interested
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Up to $1.5K: Five interested
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My question is, with all the looking and scouring I've done in the last little while the problem appears to be (at the very least) the controller. No support, needs someone smart to figure it out etc...

From what everyone else has seen, what is the best realistic guess at whether the controller will be usable? From my perspective generally speaking (very broad generalisation here) AZD wouldn't have aquired these controllers if they couldn't use them. Now we all may need to do some work and get some equipment and cables and whatever to do what they were going to do, but ultimately they should be useable right? And they should at the very least get us a drivable drivetrain with that motor and that controller (all things being equal)?

So, the reason I bring this up. I'm looking all over the interwebs and the consensus appears to be that yes, short of AZD having had a mental moment and buying something that is not useable, this is correct. It may take some time but if you get this controller and that motor it should work and work well. With maybe a little to a lot of work.

If it gets me a good AC controller and a good AC motor, even if it were just me, would that get a better price? The costs for the extra kit would obviously be on me and anyone else that might want one. But if they move more product and it gets everyone a better hypothetical bulk price, put me down for a controller too.

And if it helps, Jodie wanted the bulk lot of up to 4 sets of the following:
AC pumps
PS pumps
Brusa chargers
Water heaters

If throwing all this extra stuff helps out, as I'll want all of those things at some point, make it 5 sets of the ancillaries and I'll take one lot.

This is all dependant on the overall price in the end, but I'd rather just get everything as I know they are about what I want and then play the waiting game getting it all connected together. I hate hate hate knowing that I passed something up and then finding out I waited too long and my dream thingy turned out to be better priced than I'd ever find again :)

I'd be happy to help out with correspondence if you need someone to assist with getting answers from these suppliers Stiive. I'm in the Army and deal with international shipping as part of what I do (try freighting multiple Abrams Tank and helicopters to different countries on civilan assets on the same day...I dare you). The one thing I can't help with in the way I'd like is actually shipping. I know how to talk to these people and to get things sliding around the planet the way I want at the price I want but I can't use any of the avenues to assist with cheap movement I would use in my work like throwing the stuff in the back of one of my aircraft that happens to be in the area.

Because that would be fraud. And I need a better reason for prison.
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Post by theboatman » Fri, 23 Nov 2012, 17:51

coulomb wrote:Maybe there is some slight variation between these AZD and other 1PV5135-4WS14 motors, but I don't think so.


The ones I have been looking at for a while, and knowing there was no chance outside of a lotto win, at Metricmind are all the >560V models.

These being around 300V may make them more rare maybe. I haven't found any lower voltage motors of this series anywhere in years. Not that they don't necessarily exist, as I would definately miss things popping up out of the ether, but these ones at around 300V are certainly more attractive to me, price not withstanding.
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Post by celectric » Fri, 23 Nov 2012, 19:03

theboatman wrote: AC pumps
PS pumps
Brusa chargers
Water heaters
Come to think of it, I might be interested in that stuff too. Any idea of specs and price?

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Post by a4x4kiwi » Fri, 23 Nov 2012, 19:36

And a set for me.

The items are not appearing on eBay as quick as I thought they would.

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