Changing an induction motor voltage

AC, DC, amps, volts and kilowatt. It's all discussed in here
Post Reply
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2621
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by weber » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 00:36

The ideal way to load it would be another induction motor [Edit: and VF drive] regenerating into a shared DC bus.
Last edited by weber on Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Johny » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 01:07

Hey and if the second one was bigger it could power the other one and, and...

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 01:18

woody wrote:
The theory goes that if your windings for each pole are distributed like a sine wave, then the 3 overlapping phases produce a smooth rotating magnetic field for the rotor.

OK, but I just can't picture how you distribute windings sinusoidally.
Unless you mean over a number of slots the ones closer to centre have more turns. My poor brain struggles with the distributed windings (for a single pole), it seems to me that a number of the turns actually oppose the intended result.

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 01:24

[quote="woody
I can't see your motor moving nicely, there's no magnetic field rotating, therefore no induced magnetic field in the rotor, therefore no magnetic force to turn it around.
[/QUOTE"]

Your still thinking classic multi phase sinusoidal AC, and you may be absolutely correct at that.
What is in my mind is a 36 slot stator wound as per my drawing giving 12 poles in total. Two Alternating DC driven (forgive me for I have sinned) 'phases' and a permanent magnet rotor.....actually as I type I realise it won't know which way it is rotating......hmm more thinking required. Damn.

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by a4x4kiwi » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 01:25

Squiggles, PM me your email and I will send you an ebook that will help.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 01:52

Will do, much appreciated.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by acmotor » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 02:16

Hmmmm, here in thinks out loud and thus subject to intense flaming......

The magnetic field does not rotate. It simply strengthens then weakens and reverses, strenghtens and weakens again and so on but because it does it over 3 phases at 120° (or whatever number of phases and appropriate degrees) the net result is a changing field whose peak + and - locations are rotating around. Thus induces current in the rotor and so on.
Thing is, the shape of the pole seems to have less to do with the operation than is being suggested ? The curent supplied is sinusoidal and thus the field flux is as well. Thus the peak flux position is as well.
If there were torque ripple it would be in the rotor, yes, but is this such an issue since the net result is torque and the rotor is designed with laminations expecting to see some ripple in induced current anyway.
I follow the stop start suggestion, but is this what really happens ?
I'll duck now. Image

Don't make me read another book. Just tell me the condensed answer. Image
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 02:24

I just scanned a book that mysteriously appeared in my in box. Actually very proud of myself, figure 4-83 page 90 pretty much replicates the circuit I have scribbled on a scrap of paper I have been thinking on for the last few days.

I think I already see the solution to my two phase postulation. Your thinking out loud is similar to my thinking out not so loud (for fear of ridicule).

My simple little head is just thinking similar poles repel, dissimilar poles attract and that must have something to do with it Image

It just seems to me that there must be a way of doing all this without the need for a sine wave. Mind you if you alternately reverse the DC current in an inductor (field winding) you are going to get some form of non-square wave as a result. We all know of course that a square wave is made of sine waves..blah..de..blah...

edit: spelunk
edit: self praise Image
Last edited by Squiggles on Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 16:29, edited 1 time in total.

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 03:30

More like this, control the two phases with 'H' bridge MOSFET controllers.
Will it work? Need to prototype it somehow. Need a very small motor with 12, 24 or 36 slots...any ideas...anyone?

Image

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by acmotor » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 04:09

Squiggles,

You must think 3 phases otherwise the motor will have no start torque.
i.e. nothing to push it over centre. (doesn't know which way to turn)

Think, there are only 1 phase and 3 or more phases. 2 phases (180° apart) only equals 1 phase with one pole reversed.

But other than that, you seem to be describing a Brushless DC motor.
You need to PWM the drive to each of THREE phases to control torque with a (hall effect) pickup to tell the controller when to switch to the next phase.

An induction 3 phase motor is just a variation on the theme since BLDC and 3PIM or 3PSM (synchronous) have a lot in common.
A BLDC controller is probably easier to build than an induction motor VFD. Guys... find some links for squiggles.

But keep going, you are on the right track and you can build your own motor. Image
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 04:43

Tuarn,
What you state about number of phases is what I was concerned by prior to tonights postings, I was not sure that what I was thinking could work.
The book excerpt so graciously provided by one of esteemed colleagues indicates that two phase operation is possible. So now I would like to try it for real small scale of course. Of course it is talking Sinusoidal AC and I am talking Square Wave AC (there I can say it without using DC Image )

I reckon building your own motor is a real possibility, can't find a source of sheet silicon steel for laminations though!! For small quantity for one off experimental motor laser or HP water cutting would work.

design stator to fit inside aluminium tube (12mm wall), build into a square section outer body to create water cooling ports...it's all in my head just need to prove the operational theory first.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by acmotor » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 05:28

That's all fine but you worry me talking two phases.
Check out the starting torque of a single("two phase" if you must) motor in those books.
Also how long it can sustain its limited inefficient starting torque ?
Go three phases and it is sure to work. Both diresctions and with full starting torque.
Image
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3762
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by coulomb » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 05:45

acmotor wrote:You must think 3 phases otherwise the motor will have no start torque.
i.e. nothing to push it over centre. (doesn't know which way to turn)
No, "single phase" induction motors (really two phase motors that can be run off single phase power) can be self starting.
Think, there are only 1 phase and 3 or more phases. 2 phases (180° apart) only equals 1 phase with one pole reversed.
Not true: 2-phase doesn't have to be 180° apart; that's silly as you point out. 90° apart does the trick:

http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electri ... ocid822320

I've actually been wondering myself if you could build a 2-phase motor and a controller with only 2/3 of the cost of the back end (IGBTs, gate drivers, etc). Two phases in quadrature exactly determines a position in space; that's why resolvers almost universally use this scheme for position sending. So there would be no ambiguity of position or direction.

To experiment with this, play with a "single phase" induction machine. These usually have two quatrature (90° apart) windings, and a capacitor to cause about a 90° phase shift. Many drill press motors, motors for cement mixers, garden mulchers, pumps, etc would be of this type. They usually have a "start" capacitor and/or contactor too; maybe there is something about starting, and that's the drawback. But whatever it needs, a controller with 2 H-bridges (2/3 of a 3-phase AC controller) should be able to mimic it. (Edit: in fact a 3-phase controller has 1.5 H bridges, or 3 half-H switch pairs. So this idea needs 4/3 of what a 3-phase controller has, or 3/3 (i.e. the same) if you common two of the wires. In other words, you may as well just do 3-phase. I figure this out about 5 posts down.)

Let's go shares on the profits, hey?   Image
Last edited by coulomb on Fri, 05 Feb 2010, 11:46, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3762
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by coulomb » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 05:57

Also, on the "sinusoidally distributed windings" thing, I think that it's not necessary to have the windings so distributed at all. Imagine three "point sources" of 3-phase excitation. As one peaks, the overall peak will be at that point. A few electrical degrees later, that peak is down to say 90% and some other source is at say 12% more than it was, so the overall resultant total field is now (after vectorially adding the three strengths) a few degrees shifted to towards that newly increasing source. The "tip" of the magnitude vector moves totally smoothly around the three sources, provided that the sources are sinusoidally driven. (This totally doesn't work with square waves, sorry Squiggles). (Edit: but you can of course use PWM as normal to generate pseudo sine waves. You might not get as much peak to peak from 2 phases as from three, but that would be minor for EVs.)

I think that the issue arises when the sources are not "point sources", but in fact magnetic areas (what's the iron between slots called? [Edit: "teeth"]). Also, if you happen to have several (pairs of) slots per winding, then you may need to consider distributing the number of turns to approximate a sine wave.

In fact, I don't see the point of more than one slot pair per coil. I'm sure there is a good reason, just I can't see it yet.

Mal: thanks again for the scanned chapter. How weird is it to use a book where all the figures for a chapter come together after all the text? I guess they couldn't afford computer time in those days (1947?) to lay out documents Image

Also, weren't those stators short in those days as well? And diamond shaped windings... I guess a few (non essential) details have changed since then.
Last edited by coulomb on Fri, 05 Feb 2010, 11:52, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by a4x4kiwi » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 06:15

This book is a bit of a trick.

It is like 2 books in one. A bit hard to explain but, the text is in the RHS book and the images in the LHS book.

The reason it is like this is so you can refer to the images without page flipping the text.

I just scanned it as one PDF. I should have split it.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by acmotor » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 07:27

Are, that explains it. The figures and text were so far apart !

coulomb, I didn't say you couldn't have a 1 or '2' phase motor. Just that they don't make electromechanical sense (at least to me and compared with 3 phase). They don't know which way to go and you have to start them in some way. e.g. additional windings with psuedo phase shifts usually involving horrible power factors.
e.g. compare cost,size,weight,starting torque, efficiency of any single phase motor with a 3 phase motor. It is a no brainer.
You need 3 phases to know which way to go and three phases to have working torque from zero RPM.

You don't save anything by the way if you run 1 phase. It will be at least 3 x the current for the same kW to start with and '2' phase will be 1.5x the current.
I am well aware of the various forms of single phase motor that start and run with 'split' phases, but I would not wish it upon anyone to try to use less than 3 phases for an EV traction application. Like anything, it can and has been done but horrible. Check evalbum. Please move on to 3 phase thinking ! IMHO

I'm with you on the sinusoidal thinking though !

Image
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 13:56

acmotor wrote:
They don't know which way to go and you have to start them in some way.
Yes they can, that is where the book confirmed my original thinking.
acmotor wrote:
e.g. compare cost,size,weight,starting torque, efficiency of any single phase motor with a 3 phase motor.
Maybe so, and I probably will prove this in the end, but if you don't think outside the square no invention happens.
acmotor wrote:
You don't save anything by the way if you run 1 phase. It will be at least 3 x the current for the same kW to start with and '2' phase will be 1.5x the current.
You mean per phase of course, total battery current should remain the same. Except for any efficiency variation of course.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3762
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by coulomb » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 14:01

acmotor wrote: You don't save anything by the way if you run 1 phase. It will be at least 3 x the current for the same kW to start with and '2' phase will be 1.5x the current.
I don't think so. A three phase motor running on single phase power on two phases develops 2/3 of its designed power. With 2 phases it would just be a matter of distributing the phases around the circumference. As long as all the windings get full current, the motor would develop full power. So you could convert a 3-phase motor to 2-phase if you wanted.

But here is the killer, which I realised after settling in bed last night: you still need three pairs of IGBTs! One pair just gives you one sine wave; you need two pairs to get a full voltage (and reversing) sine wave. You need the third pair just to get the second sine wave (relative to one of the other two). In fact, you get a third wave for free (quadrature the other way). So really, you may as well use 3-phase.

Oops! Image

Edit: fixed "pairs of pairs" (a very fruity idea).
Last edited by coulomb on Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 11:20, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 14:18

coulomb wrote:
But here is the killer, which I realised after settling in bed last night: you still need three pairs of IGBT pairs! One pair just gives you one sine wave; you need two pairs to get a full voltage (and reversing) sine wave. You need the third pair just to get the second sine wave (relative to one of the other two). In fact, you get a third wave for free (quadrature the other way). So really, you may as well use 3-phase.

Oops! Image


Could you explain that in another language?
What is your hang up with sine waves, you don't need sign waves to drive magnets!

Tritium_James
Senior Member
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed, 04 Mar 2009, 17:15
Real Name: James Kennedy
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Tritium_James » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 14:19

coulomb wrote:You still need three pairs of IGBT pairs! One pair just gives you one sine wave; you need two pairs to get a full voltage (and reversing) sine wave. You need the third pair just to get the second sine wave (relative to one of the other two). In fact, you get a third wave for free (quadrature the other way). So really, you may as well use 3-phase.
Exactly! You would not be getting good utilisation of your (expensive!) silicon in the motor controller running a 2-phase motor. You've paid for three half-bridges but they're only doing the work of two.

I think there's a similar argument for space/magnetics/copper utilisation in the motor with 2-phase as compared to 3-phase too, but I can't remember the details.

Tritium_James
Senior Member
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed, 04 Mar 2009, 17:15
Real Name: James Kennedy
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Tritium_James » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 14:25

Squiggles, think of it this way. To make the thinking simpler, consider a motor with permanent magnets in the rotor. When you spin it, as the magnets go past the coils in your stator windings, you will see a voltage produced on the winding. This is the motor back-EMF.

If you look at the voltage waveform, for most motors it is sinusoidal. Think of the magnet as it approaches the winding, the winding 'sees' more and more of the magnet until the magnet is centred on the winding, and then it 'see's less and less. This gives you a sinusoidal output waveform.

When you go to drive this motor, it is certainly possible to drive it with a square wave, but it is inefficient. You want to match the drive waveform to the back-EMF waveform, otherwise you're putting extra current into the winding that doesn't really do anything. If your drive waveform isn't lined up with the magnet, it's got nothing to 'push against' and so it doesn't have any real effect. All the extra current does is generate losses in the motor and controller.

This is most obvious with brushless DC (permanent magnet) motors. Early controllers ran 6-step drive waveforms, which are square wave. It's really simple, you look at a set of hall sensors to detect where the magnets are, and drive the appropriate phase. But it's far better to drive a sinewave into the motor, it runs much quieter, and gets less hot. The same thing applies to non-permanent magnet motors too, such as induction motors.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2621
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by weber » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 16:11

coulomb wrote: Also, on the "sinusoidally distributed windings" thing, I think that it's not necessary to have the windings so distributed at all.
...
(This totally doesn't work with square waves, sorry Squiggles).
Quite true, Squiggles. There is a range of non-sinusoidal (but not very far from it) waveforms that will still give a smoothly rotating force, but it does not include square waves or rectangular pulses. These will give lumpy torque and hence noise and vibration.
In fact, I don't see the point of more than one slot pair per coil.
I assume you meant "one slot-pair per pole winding" since by definition a coil only uses one pair of slots. So you're saying you don't yet see the point of more than one coil per pole winding. It's a good question.

I just looked up what the pieces of iron between the slots are called: "teeth".

Squiggles and ACmotor, yes, 2 phases 90° apart can produce smooth torque just as well as 3 phases 120° apart. The reason we have 3 phases is all about long-distance power transmission (which doesn't usually apply to EVs Image). 2 phases needs 3 wires, but the common wire carries sqrt(2) ~= 1.414 times as much current as the other two. With 3 phases 120° apart you might think you need 4 wires, but with balanced loads, the current in the common wire (neutral) cancels out to zero and so this wire can be omitted. And the currents in the remaining 3 wires are equal.

Having a 3-phase VF drive in an EV has the advantage that you can, in theory, do a fast charge if you have 3-phase mains available, by "regenerating" from the mains. But usually you only have single phase mains available anyway so that's a very minor consideration.

But unless you're already a motor and VF drive expert, developing your own 2-phase motor and VF drive would cost way more than using existing off-the-shelf 3-phase, unless you don't value your time.

However any 3-phase 2n-pole motor can be rewired internally (it doesn't need to be rewound) to become a 2-phase 3n-pole motor. Since acmotor has brought all 12 windings of his 3-phase 4-pole out to the terminal box he could rewire it as a 2-phase 6-pole any time he liked. But of course he wouldn't have anything to drive it with. Probably the cheapest way to make a 2-phase VFD would be to hack a 3-phase, but what would be the point?
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3762
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by coulomb » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 17:12

weber wrote: So you're saying you don't yet see the point of more than one coil per pole winding. It's a good question.

I'm starting to think it's just so the designers can get a motor that works well at higher voltages, like 415 VAC or 720 VAC, at 50 Hz.

Of course, for us, we want the motor to run on relatively low voltages, either so we don't need so many batteries, or so we can overvoltage/overfrequency them.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2621
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by weber » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 17:40

weber wrote:However any 3-phase 2n-pole motor can be rewired internally to become a 2-phase 3n-pole motor.

Jeez weber, you moron, if n = 1 you're saying I can have a 3-pole motor. Gimme a break. Didn't anyone ever tell you magnetic poles always come in pairs.

I think you meant to say:
Any 3-phase 4n-pole motor can be rewired to become a 2-phase 6n-pole motor.

Hey coulomb and Tritium James, you smart, weber stupid, about needing at least 3 half-bridges for 2-phases anyway. However I think weber may have been assuming Squiggles would use a battery center-tap for the common connection, and so only need 2 half-bridges. However this would result in a lower maximum phase voltage.

For that matter, you could do the same thing (2 half-bridges with battery center-tap) for 3-phase. I'd be interested to know what the maximum peak-to-peak phase voltages would be (as a multiplier on the overall battery voltage) for the four cases.

Yes the back-emf should match the applied voltage, but the back-emf waveform can be tailored somewhat, which is presumably why permanent magnet synchronous machines designed to run only off an inverter (called "brushless DC") use something closer to a trapezoid than a sine wave (flatter on top). This can still produce a smooth torque (unlike square waves).
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by acmotor » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 18:54

I am just so not into less than 3 phases. Guys, IMHO less than three phases is like a few star pickets short of a fence line ! IYKWIM.

... and I do think Nicola tesla ran his induction motor experiments 1889? before there were 3 phase power transmission lines (that he also proposed because they make sense)! so wipe that one. Image

Just think about starting torque and starting direction for a moment.
(the point you have been avoiding)

Then get back on topic ! Image   
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

Post Reply