Changing an induction motor voltage

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by weber » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 14:25

a4x4kiwi wrote: Guys, you would kill for this book I got given last week.
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Raise your hands in the air and step away from the book, and no one will get hurt.

Coulomb, I didn't know you had an axe to grind. I thought the sound was the bearings on that motor. Image
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 14:27

I saw that and assumed one photo was taken with flash and one without. Never made the blue connection.


edit; referring to bluefang pictures of course.
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 14:31

You better scan that book before it gets damaged. I would hate to see you loose it in a flood or fire....worse still it could get stolen.

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 14:35

3rd edition available for US$168

Of course you could request your local library to get it in.
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by a4x4kiwi » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 15:26

@Coulomb Nothing on circulating currents so far.

@Acmotor the coils in the book are much like you have drawn. Each coil is the identical (same length).

[edit] it refers to the winding as a 'Basket Winding'

I will scan a few key images and text today.
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looks like I have a collectors item :) it originally cost 40/- from Dymock's in George St.
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Bluefang » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 15:32

Haha, thats just the crappy flash on my phone. Tho i have already put my name on the motors for when the boss orders in the skip to clean out the workshop...i ll come in on my day off even to make sure they end up in my car boot.

Hmm now i might have to start reading about how to build 2 of my own controllers one for each motor, should make it alot easier to overpower them then just having one big controller driving both. That DIY ac controller thread is huge tho :(
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by a4x4kiwi » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 15:36

FYI here is a book from Google books that might make interesting reading.

Armature Winding and Motor Repair

Actually there are a few interesting reads
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by a4x4kiwi » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 15:44

@Bluefang, one VFD can drive multiple induction (presumably identical motors), just not in closed loop mode. This is discussed in my Danfoss controller manual. I don't exect any other controller to be different.

I don't think difference in speed of the front and rear drive shafts will be a problem. It will be worst at very low speed, but you are only driving at maneuvering speed anyway. It would make for some fun donuts if you put your boot into it though.

This has got me thinking. I might take some chalk and a tape measure to a car park and see what the difference really would be as it relates to the torque curve.
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Johny » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 15:56

Mal. Have you ever done a single flat-out acceleration run on flat and level to say 80km/hr.
It would be incredibly useful to have even one of these runs to compare with theoretical spreadsheet values.
I.e Video of speedo and then later examine and graph time and speed.
Just while you are in the car park...
Of course finding flat and level is a pain.

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by acmotor » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 17:10

So let me get this right ....

Bluefang needs a new phone,
acmotor has a basket (case) winding in his emotor,
weber and coulomb are hung up on circulating currents,
a4x4kiwi is all booked up,
squiggles is plotting something,
woody is in love with Dahlander,
Richo's besotted with double shafts,
and Johny just wants data.

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Bluefang » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 18:41

Wow, what a way to sum it all up. ROFL

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Richo » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 19:30

Image

But they have double shafts!

Hey acmotor any way of loading the modified motor to the new continuous limit to see the heat varion over a 24hr period.
Maybe a pulley to a cement mixer with some sand in it or something?

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Johny » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 19:43

Need input (data)...
Yeah acmotor, you do have a cement mixer and some sand lying around don't you? Or a pump? Hey, how about hacking the house air conditioner.

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Tritium_James » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 20:41

Or put it in a car or something.

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by acmotor » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 22:12

Ok, Ok, Im working on it. I'm mounting up a second motor now. Image
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 22:55

Any of you guys ever seen anything along the lines of a program that shows flux paths of magnetic circuits? I mean from a design perspective, so that we can see the changes in a stator if the winding pattern is altered for instance.


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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 23:14

What would happen if the windings looked like this?
Would it actually produce a single pole centred on the middle finger?

Image

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by coulomb » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 23:27

Squiggles wrote: Would it actually produce a single pole centred on the middle finger?

That's my understanding, yes. Well, two poles, one each for the red and blue windings, centred on their middle bits of iron. (I assume that your horizontal lines represent laminations, unlike the diagrams of acmotor and mine). Assuming that the red and blue windings get voltages that are 120° apart.
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by woody » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 23:29

Squiggles wrote: What would happen if the windings looked like this?
Would it actually produce a single pole centred on the middle finger?

Image
You've only got two phases there, so there's no rotating wave (stool with two legs will fall over).

Assuming you extend to 3 phases, you will get a 2 pole motor with consequent poles.

Not sure if your winding is approximately sinusoidally distributed, so there will be some inefficiency there too.
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Tritium_James » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 23:46

Squiggles wrote: Any of you guys ever seen anything along the lines of a program that shows flux paths of magnetic circuits? I mean from a design perspective, so that we can see the changes in a stator if the winding pattern is altered for instance.
Sure, here: http://www.ansoft.com/products/em/rmxprt/
http://www.ansoft.com/products/em/maxwell/
As far as I can recall, it's worth $40-50k for a seat.

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 23:48

woody wrote:
Squiggles wrote: What would happen if the windings looked like this?
Would it actually produce a single pole centred on the middle finger?

Image
You've only got two phases there, so there's no rotating wave (stool with two legs will fall over).

Assuming you extend to 3 phases, you will get a 2 pole motor with consequent poles.

Not sure if your winding is approximately sinusoidally distributed, so there will be some inefficiency there too.


OK you two, thanks for the replies, but don't go making too many assumptions Image I don't recall mentioning 3 phases, what if the two windings are 180 degrees apart?

What do you mean by sinusoidally distributed?

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 23:49

Tritium_James wrote:
Squiggles wrote: Any of you guys ever seen anything along the lines of a program that shows flux paths of magnetic circuits? I mean from a design perspective, so that we can see the changes in a stator if the winding pattern is altered for instance.
Sure, here: http://www.ansoft.com/products/em/rmxprt/
http://www.ansoft.com/products/em/maxwell/
As far as I can recall, it's worth $40-50k for a seat.


Jeez, I didn't ask to fly to the moon!!

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by Squiggles » Tue, 16 Jun 2009, 23:51

coulomb wrote:
Squiggles wrote: Would it actually produce a single pole centred on the middle finger?

That's my understanding, yes. Well, two poles, one each for the red and blue windings, centred on their middle bits of iron. (I assume that your horizontal lines represent laminations, unlike the diagrams of acmotor and mine). Assuming that the red and blue windings get voltages that are 120° apart.


Yes, I did mean two poles, I should be more precise with the question.

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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by woody » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 00:15

Squiggles wrote: OK you two, thanks for the replies, but don't go making too many assumptions Image I don't recall mentioning 3 phases, what if the two windings are 180 degrees apart?
I can't see your motor moving nicely, there's no magnetic field rotating, therefore no induced magnetic field in the rotor, therefore no magnetic force to turn it around.
Squiggles wrote: What do you mean by sinusoidally distributed?
The theory goes that if your windings for each pole are distributed like a sine wave, then the 3 overlapping phases produce a smooth rotating magnetic field for the rotor.

The further the distribution is from a sine, the further your magnetic field is from a smooth rotation, therefore inefficiencies sap your power. e.g. your power is sapped by trying to speed up and slow down the rotor, rather than just accellerate it smoothly.

Think of trying to drive where you only had two pedal positions - full accel and full brake (like sydney bus drivers seems to), and you could only move your foot once per second - not very smooth.
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Changing an induction motor voltage

Post by coulomb » Wed, 17 Jun 2009, 00:16

woody wrote: You've only got two phases there, so there's no rotating wave (stool with two legs will fall over).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you can get a perfectly good rotating field from two coils, e.g. 90° apart.
Like getting a circle on a CRO from two quadrature sine waves, connected to the X and Y inputs. See the AC chapter of a book Weber recommended (sorry, direct link not to hand right now).
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