ABB motor and VFD selection

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Post by Squiggles » Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 23:28

Why use contactors to split the pack? Wouldn't manual switches save $s and do the same thing?

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Post by HeadsUp » Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 23:31

contactors are linked to the impact sensors and emergency kill switch required under NCOP14 laws

so if you had a collision all the power is cut instantaneously thereby stopping the risk of fire from short circuits or electrocution

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Post by Squiggles » Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 23:35

That is fine but surely the single main contactor does this and is rated for breaking full current. The other contactors are just to break up the pack are they not?. So there is no point having energy wasting and money wasting contactors when manual switches can achieve the same result.
Last edited by Squiggles on Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by HeadsUp » Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 23:51

if you have an accident ( or a deliberate ) and there is damage to the vehicle structure or battery racks then having battery packs of 500 VDC might cause some gray hairs ............. in the hairs that were not burnt off your head in the fire

separated cell packs of around 48 - 68 volts would be more sensiboow' , i forget what NCOP stipulates , its worth a read

Last edited by HeadsUp on Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 12:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Squiggles » Sat, 31 Oct 2009, 00:35

Good point.



is a deliberate like a "near miss" which seems to me is actually a hit?

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Post by HeadsUp » Sat, 31 Oct 2009, 00:48

i reckon a " deliberate " is when you gas it hard through a corner , slide out , bite and then get the car up on two wheels

when your friends in the car have finished cleaning off the skidmarks .. you can claim you intended doing it

ie. a deliberate

.
just kidding

NSW police used to call collisions a "MVA".. or Motor vehicle accident

but they recently changed it to " MVC " or motor vehicle collision , maybe it was considered a technical loophole in law or something where it was labelled incorrectly , i dont know the reason ...but maybe some of them could be argued to have been deliberate where driver negligence was the cause and therefore not an " accident ".

enuff friday boredom , i wasted enough black ink here already

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Post by Richo » Sat, 31 Oct 2009, 01:32

Since the packs are divided into two physical areas.
You should have 2 contactors for each for a total of 4.
But for better saftey put another contactor in the middle of each pack.
ie 6 contactors.
This will still mean you have 4 x 144V floating around.
This would be a minimum of break-up contactor use.

Go the Kilovac EV200 they have a better rating, Voltage and current, and are also filled with inert gas.
Absolute overkill but they are good value for money.

The NCOP14 has no specifics for pack break-up.
Just that it is isolated.
So you could have 600V isolated with no break-up points.
But that's not really safe.

The benefit of the break-ups is if you were working on the car while off you would only be subjected to a max of 48V which will give a tingle.(not of the good kind either)
Working on the car with no break-ups can be potentially fatal.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by woody » Sat, 31 Oct 2009, 04:51

e-ghia is already splitting the pack with contactors into 48V blocks, like a4x4kiwi and acmotor.

e-ghia you need a "main" contactor (e.g. EV-200) which should be capable of disconnecting 800V under load, which the little contactors aren't.
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Post by Richo » Sat, 31 Oct 2009, 08:00

I guess it is in the context.
I'm assuming the albright contactor e-ghia highlighted IS the 48V break-up.
With the thought of using less ie 48V->144V
e-ghia wrote:Also, we are using contactors to separate/connect the 48V modules. We could use some help selecting the proper contactor. I thought we could use the Curtis SW82 - a DPST - using 1/2 as many considering the smaller footprint and lower overall cost - found here.

Am I on the right track? Are these not enough or overkill?
Also, should we consider some sort of spike suppression for these when the string(s) is connected?

Richo wrote:
Go the Kilovac EV200 they have a better rating, Voltage and current, and are also filled with inert gas.
Absolute overkill but they are good value for money.

woody wrote: e-ghia is already splitting the pack with contactors into 48V blocks, like a4x4kiwi and acmotor.

e-ghia you need a "main" contactor (e.g. EV-200) which should be capable of disconnecting 800V under load, which the little contactors aren't.


The albright contactor is $78. 125A 80-96V 12W consumption.
The Kilovac contactor is ~$76. 500A 320-900V 1.7W consumption & no BEMF.

No competition really.

Which "little" contactors did you have in mind Woody?
Last edited by Richo on Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 21:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by e-ghia » Sat, 31 Oct 2009, 19:05

Richo wrote:
The albright contactor is $78. 125A 80-96V 12W consumption.
The Kilovac contactor is ~$76. 500A 320-900V 1.7W consumption & no BEMF.

No competition really.

Which "little" contactors did you have in mind Woody?


I really like the lower consumption of the Kilovac, but we'd need 12 of them = $$$ Image

I suggested the Albright SW82 because we'd need half as many. Does anyone know of a Kilovac (or another) that can offer the same price savings and lower power consumption?

I also found out that Albright makes a DPST @ 80A called the SW68, but I can't find a price for them.

Finally, I did find a place that sells the SW60 for about $20USD - the toolboxshop.com. Maybe 12 x $20 is our best option?

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Post by Johny » Sat, 31 Oct 2009, 21:43

I am planning on using 2 x EV200s at either end of the pack and 8 x SW60-2 from the toolboxshop to break the system into 60V chunks. That way the fault-opening is handled by the EV200s but the pack is broken up, when off, into "safe" voltages.

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 31 Oct 2009, 21:49

+1 use more than one kilovac

my 288v conversion is using 6 ev200s (i had a bit of a collection of them anyway).

although the ev200s have an opening time that is faster than the albrights, it is much better to have more than one for redundancy.
Thinking from a contactor wear perspective here.

The albrights with also experience leakage current if only using one ev200.

the breaking current capacity (use once only) of a ev200 at 600v is only like 1000A. not really enough.

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Post by Johny » Sun, 01 Nov 2009, 00:54

I guess that is an advantage of using an industrial VFD. The emergency/inertial/ignition-off system can trip the VFD as it opens all contactors. It would only be in a disaster that contactors would have to open full current and even then the fuses would probably blow before the user had a chance to hit E-STOP.

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Post by acmotor » Sun, 01 Nov 2009, 04:56

Just some thoughts.

Don't be put off by suggestions that x2 is only x1.7, you will get genuine x2 for more than long enough to flatten your batteries with industrial motors. This is from bench tests of a small motor and in red suzi data confirmed by woody/johny spreadsheets.
Keep in mind, the more efficient the motor to start with, the less the losses, even when they are increased.

Servo motors look good on paper in their peak ratings but then you need to compare these with Pn x Tm/Tn (approx 3) of industrial ACIMs. Also consider the continuous power revs. Is the servo motor already being overclocked ?
Efficiency is not the prime design criteria for servo motors.
Another point is that servo motors are usually designed with low inertia (mass) rotors by requirement for rapid speed/direction change. This is not an EV requirement. The last point may be their cost is often greater than a standard ACIM.
From my experience with motor suppliers, they are just unaware of the potential of the humble ACIM. If they can't see data in a catalogue then they say it can't be done. I guess that won't change unless they build an EV using one !
But don't be put off. If the deal is good then try it.



I know you already have your VFD but I was going to say, don't choose on kW, select on nominal/peak current. e.g. my 11kW at 1/4V needs some 264A peak. Your 138A peak and 1.73 overvoltage is a good start though.

I run without a gearbox, but with 6.5:1 via transfer case.
Believe me, if you can lose the gearbox then do so. This does mean that zero RPM torque must meet your expectations. Sorry to the 2 pole guys but 4 pole rules here. Image
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Post by coulomb » Sun, 01 Nov 2009, 18:54

acmotor wrote: Sorry to the 2 pole guys but 4 pole rules here. Image

Yes, for direct drive you have to accept the lower power per weight compromise, just so that you can get enough low end torque without a gearbox.

I was noticing in the ABB Process Performance catalogue that some of the "constant torque" Dahlander 2-speed motors are not too disgusting, at least at the smaller end. For example,

7.2/4.8 M3AP 132 M 3GAA 138 102-¥¥C1) 2870/1435 84.0/81.0 0.93/0.76 13.3/11.5 7.1/6.2 24/31.9 2.4/2.5 2.6/2.7 0.022 56

So that's a 7.2 kW motor with Tm/Tn = 2.6 and 2.7, 3000 RPM nominal torque is 24 Nm, and you can "switch to low gear" (switch to 4-pole configuration) and get 31.9 Nm nominal (times 2.7 peak). The efficiency is a bit low, and the power to weight is down a tad, but it probably beats adding a gearbox.

Alas, no S (1.73 overvoltage) option for these.

The larger ones get really big and heavy pretty quickly. But a motor plus gearbox is pretty big and heavy too. So it seems to me that for some applications, they should not be dismissed out of hand.
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 02 Nov 2009, 03:20

Mmmm, my ASEA 11kW is now a 223Nm (at least) peak in 0-6000RPM 132kW peak motor in 80kg.
Not too shabby in the power to weight !
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Post by HeadsUp » Mon, 02 Nov 2009, 03:28

acmotor wrote: Mmmm, my ASEA 11kW is now a 223Nm (at least) peak in 0-6000RPM 132kW peak motor in 80kg.
Not too shabby in the power to weight !


thanks , i wanted to ask you for a post rewind evaluation

can i ask what the rewind cost and what they specc'ed it at ?

now if i can just find an 11 kW Ali in # 132 frame.......

or could i go smaller ?

dont get me wrong , i am a lunatic rev-head but i am aiming for long range with average performance , and RAV4 will be only 1720 kg or so .

--------------------- EDITED --------------------------

i better add it is direct drive and with the choice of Diffs i have , motor RPM will be either 3000 or 4500 RPM at 115 km/hr, so i dont need all of the 6000 RPM you have

.
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Post by acmotor » Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 00:42

Check out red suzi in member's machines for more info.

I don't use all the 6000RPM now (controller too small) but this rev range issue is my point with 2 vs 4 pole. Your even less likely to be able to use 12,000 RPM !

Aim to select the torque required of the motor. The kW is very flexible.
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Post by Travers » Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 03:46

acmotor wrote: Check out red suzi in member's machines for more info.

I don't use all the 6000RPM now (controller too small) but this rev range issue is my point with 2 vs 4 pole. Your even less likely to be able to use 12,000 RPM !

Aim to select the torque required of the motor. The kW is very flexible.

Wow, so your using basically a std 4 pole motor and taking it to 6000rpm! what sort of size does this speed range not apply, ie do the bigger ones (180 or 200 frame) have too much mass or unbalance and don't like the overspeed?

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Post by acmotor » Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 04:07

ABB spec the 4 pole motors in 160 frame to 4500RPM (bearing limited, mind you ~20,000 hours!) I haven't looked up the 180 frame but would expect it to be 4500RPM as well.

I had bearings spec'd for 6000RPM fitted and the rotor balanced at 6000RPM. Text I have read suggests that much above that becomes a centrifugal force issue for the rotor and different iron laminations would be required above 200Hz anyway as iron losses are increasing.

You'd need to be converting a bus to consider a 200 frame ! And then I'd use a 6 pole motor.
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Post by Richo » Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 04:22

Even my 160 frame motor would be around 250kW at those speeds.
The cops might be suspicious at my electric BMW with 300% more power. Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by acmotor » Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 04:26

Yep, the emotor won't be the limiting factor !
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Post by Travers » Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 18:17

Yeh my thoughts of the AWD is on the back burner and think I should keep it simpler for my first EV, thinking more along Richo's path but an E36, 250kW sounds close to what I want Image but yes the controller is where all the grunt has to come from. A factory E36 M3 has 210kW (Flywheel) so that would be my aim.
Bearings and balancing for 6000rpm, electric motors are generally a high tolerance already and should be balanced to G2.5 ISO 1940 as standard, what spec did you ask for?

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Post by Richo » Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 00:29

Won't really need 6000RPM for direct drive either as that would be about 160kph.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Travers » Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 02:14

Your right, for a street car, 160k/h is plenty.
Based on typical wheel diameter this would give a desired rear diff ratio of 4.48 for 6000rpm@160 which puts it close to an available 4.44.
What ratio are you aiming for in the Ev30 Richo?
What sort of % nom. torque could be expected at 400% nom speed out of one of these ABB ally 160 frame motors.
Richo, am I missing something, which 160 are you using, and how would it do 250kW@6000rpm?

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