Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
francisco.shi
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

A progress update;
The charger has been fixed to the chassis and the 12v cables from the DC-DC converter have been routed to the 12v battery.
The 12v battery has been attached and the fuse box has been attached.
Frunk top view.
Frunk top view.
20220102_123215.jpg (1.6 MiB) Viewed 6186 times
Frunk front view.
Frunk front view.
20220102_122917.jpg (1.64 MiB) Viewed 6186 times
Now I have to figure out where to put the air conditioning compressor so I can maximise frunk volume.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by coulomb »

francisco.shi wrote: Sun, 02 Jan 2022, 10:35 The charger has been fixed to the chassis ...
What model charger is that Francisco? Looks like a no-name Chinese model; 6.6 kW?
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francisco.shi
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

It is a no name 6.6kw charger with DC-DC converter and power distribution hardware. It has contractors for inverter and precharge buy I am probably not going to use them because the contactor will be too small and I will have contractors inside the battery.
The reason I got this one is because it was cheaper than the one without the contactors. The one without the contactors is thinner and would have fitted between the rear diff and the floor. It would have been a much better option but this one was cheaper and quicker and it doesn't use up much useable volume in the frunk.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by 4Springs »

francisco.shi wrote: Thu, 30 Dec 2021, 10:55 For the hot water I was going to make a heat exchanger (just pipe inside the hot water tank) and run the gas out of the compressor thru the hot water tank.
I found that the water to heat the cabin needs to be 30 degrees to be any use, and this was hard to achieve in winter (at least here in Tassie). A good heat-exchanger will help, I used one of these: Packless Heat Exchanger. I got one secondhand through eBay.

The rest of my build is here: 4Springs' Heatpump.
francisco.shi
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

I did a bit of tuning of the hill hold.
Here is the result.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by Bukes »

Dude that’s awesome

Reading up on Tesla’s model s inverter - they’ve got 14 IGTBs in parallel… per switch. For 84 IGBTs in total, allowing 1500A through. Apparently using 20yr old IGTB tech:
https://www.pntpower.com/on-tesla-elect ... packaging/
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

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Bukes wrote: Tue, 04 Jan 2022, 16:49 Apparently using 20yr old IGTB tech:
https://www.pntpower.com/on-tesla-elect ... packaging/
Err, that's a 2015 article. Haven't we recently been discussing how Tesla is really, really agile, updating designs sometimes on a 3-hourly time scale? I doubt that the current models use those TO-247 IGBTs. Actually, I'm amazed that they could distribute 1500 amps over just 14 smallish packages (still over 100 A per package, through PCB tracks, and no doubt some stout busbars). And of course, 1500 A will be peak, not continuous. But even so... :o
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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francisco.shi
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

In about 1994 I was asked if I wanted to join a uni project to make an EV. I proposed to use TO247 IGBTs and put lots in parallel. At the time it was substantially cheaper than using a power block. But the power blocks have many advantages if you can get the volume. I thi k now they are much closer in price and they also have packages available designed for liquid cooling. The back of the package has pins that are in the coolant flow. The thermal resistance is less than what you could achieve using discrete devices. Also using discrete devices is very messy because of having to join all the thin legs.
I am aiming at using a bigger package than what I have now which would give me 1200A per phase but I am using smaller ones for now just because I can get them cheap. I can only get 800A with the ones I am using now.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by T1 Terry »

4Springs wrote: Sun, 02 Jan 2022, 13:34
francisco.shi wrote: Thu, 30 Dec 2021, 10:55 For the hot water I was going to make a heat exchanger (just pipe inside the hot water tank) and run the gas out of the compressor thru the hot water tank.
I found that the water to heat the cabin needs to be 30 degrees to be any use, and this was hard to achieve in winter (at least here in Tassie). A good heat-exchanger will help, I used one of these: Packless Heat Exchanger. I got one secondhand through eBay.

The rest of my build is here: 4Springs' Heatpump.
I found the water cooled condensor but @ $260 probably USD and no idea about freight costs, I might build my own .....

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francisco.shi
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

I found some Chinese made ones. I ordered one but I do not know what size and what specs to order. Also I am not sure if the same part can be used for condenser and evaporator.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by necrogt4 »

I'm curious, you seem to be using canbus comms pretty heavily. What, if any, hardware/software combination do you use for computer (laptop?) diagnosis and testing?

I'm looking at hardware/software options for my mac and was wondering if you had any recommendations...
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

For the hardware I use the Atmel studio for the Atmels and visual studio code for the ESP32.
Cor diagnostics I use the serial port to print stuff to the screen using putty (it emulates VT100 terminal) for graphing I use serial port and Arduino serial plotter.
For everything else ni have had to write my own software.
My plan is to emulate some car (like an Imiev or Nissan leaf) and use an ODBII dongle and whatever app I can get but I have not got to the ODBII part yet.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by T1 Terry »

francisco.shi wrote: Fri, 07 Jan 2022, 05:20 I found some Chinese made ones. I ordered one but I do not know what size and what specs to order. Also I am not sure if the same part can be used for condenser and evaporator.
If it can be used as the condenser than it will do both jobs because the condenser is at the highest pressure

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francisco.shi
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

A bit of an update.
I have finished the door controller and managed to get the board done befor Chinese new year.
Door controller.
Door controller.
20220125_230942.jpg (2.22 MiB) Viewed 5865 times
I am going to try to use the same board for as many parts of the car as possible.
Each door will have one so a total of 5 doors including the tailgate.
The front doors are the most complex ones. I am going to drive the rear indicators and brake lights from the rear door controllers as the front doors already have indicators on the mirrors and the brake lights, tail lights and reversing lights can be controlled by the unused outputs like mirror heater, mirror movements etc.
The tailgate controller will also control the rear wiper and water spray as well as the door brake light.
Next is the battery.
I have been leaving it for because it is a very messy job and not looking forwards to doing it.
The battery is made up of 3 modules that need to be connected in series with as few busbars as possible. There is no space to run cables between the modules so I have to make the interconnects using flat bars but the cells fit tightly in the case so not much space and need to have enough clearance for the bus bars. Also some of the battery terminals end up in the wrong side of the box which makes routing very inconvenient.
Center module.
Center module.
20220125_230556.jpg (1.63 MiB) Viewed 5865 times
Right hand side module
Right hand side module
20220125_230541.jpg (1.7 MiB) Viewed 5865 times
Two modules together.
Two modules together.
20220125_230521.jpg (1.77 MiB) Viewed 5865 times
I still have not finished the left hand side module and still have to figure out how to connect all the water feeds to all the manifolds.
And on top of all that I need to make sure I can assemble all this without electrocuting my self.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by brendon_m »

francisco.shi wrote: Tue, 25 Jan 2022, 21:22 I am going to try to use the same board for as many parts of the car as possible.
Each door will have one so a total of 5 doors including the tailgate.
The front doors are the most complex ones. I am going to drive the rear indicators and brake lights from the rear door controllers as the front doors already have indicators on the mirrors and the brake lights, tail lights and reversing lights can be controlled by the unused outputs like mirror heater, mirror movements etc.
The tailgate controller will also control the rear wiper and water spray as well as the door brake light.
Are you planning on mounting the controllers in the doors? Because if so, it doesn't make a lot of sense to run the rear lights off the rear door controllers as you'll need to run all the wires from the door, through the flexible pivot to the B pillar and then all the way back to the rear light assemblies.

You might be better off having a 6th controller on the body just for the rear lights (and also park sensors? Reverse camera? Rear winch controls? Rear accessory sockets? Work lights for camping? Electric brakes on trailer? Trailer plug on separate outputs? Boudica deployment? ). Then you'll cut out a heap of wiring in general but more importantly decrease the wires going through a pivot harness which is a really common failure point an all cars
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

The board will be in the door. I did think about the pivot wiring for the brake lights but the plug already has quite a lot of wires that won't be used so I was thinking of using those. There is already wiring going past there for the tail lights. I was trying to avoid making too many boards but that is probably an option. Will see how it goes. I was going to use the same software for all the doors and just have an ID on each board that tells them what they are.
On the subject of trailer. I was considering to add a battery to the trailer and potentially a motor to drive the trailer wheels and get some regen braking. I am not sure how easy it would be to have a driven trailer but it would work be able to be towed up some difficult tracks.
I guess it would also work well in the sand. Come to think of it I have never seen a 4WD towing a trailer on the beach.
The battery on the trailer would would probably give more range while towing. But that is for the next life.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by rhills »

Hey @francisco.shi! Do you realise that those ideas could seriously trash weekends? Careful or you'll end up as ScoMo public enemy No 1!!!

:twisted:
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by T1 Terry »

francisco.shi wrote: Wed, 26 Jan 2022, 09:06 The board will be in the door. I did think about the pivot wiring for the brake lights but the plug already has quite a lot of wires that won't be used so I was thinking of using those. There is already wiring going past there for the tail lights. I was trying to avoid making too many boards but that is probably an option. Will see how it goes. I was going to use the same software for all the doors and just have an ID on each board that tells them what they are.
On the subject of trailer. I was considering to add a battery to the trailer and potentially a motor to drive the trailer wheels and get some regen braking. I am not sure how easy it would be to have a driven trailer but it would work be able to be towed up some difficult tracks.
I guess it would also work well in the sand. Come to think of it I have never seen a 4WD towing a trailer on the beach.
The battery on the trailer would would probably give more range while towing. But that is for the next life.
You had to be there when I suggested such a thing at an Automotive Mechanical Engineers heavy vehicle meeting, each trailer having its own battery pack and motor on each wheel and a motor and gen set in the prime mover .... 25kW motor in each steer wheel, 50kW in each drive wheel to give 250kW on the ground for the prime mover. plenty to move trailers around in the docking bays and yards. 25kW motor on each trailer wheel, so 150kW drive for each trailer, a combined 400kW on the ground for a single tri-axle trailer, 650kW for a B double and 800kW drive on the ground for a B triple ..... something not possible using the bogie drive prime mover model ..... the "utter nonsense" and danger of the "self driving trailers causing jack knife" problems ..... not like they don't jack knife no of course .... no matter how much I tried to put forward the fact an electric motor on regen could not cause a wheel to lock up and wheel speed sensing, alresdy used for anti lock braking, couldn't be used to actually stop jack knife problems where the trailer tried to over take the prime mover ......
This was back in the mid 2000's the thought of an electric drive truck was just science fiction to them at the time .... I wonder how many of them think back on that meeting now .....

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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by Bukes »

Makes so much sense. Including the jack knife. In fact could arguably make trailers significantly safer. Should be a safety feature (like ABS brakes), more than a performance / efficiency feature.
Trailers have nice flat roof for solar too. Slow charge but might get you out of a tight spot, and if you’re camping somewhere for a few days anyway… why not? plus keeps the batteries topped up while the trailer is sitting in the driveway between uses.

Have plans to do this in the caravan at some point. It’s got to have batteries and electric brake controller anyway.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

I think a caravan could have a 100kwh battery under with 3kw solar array that can be extended when parked.
It would be the ultimate getaway rig. Drive for a day then stop for 3 or 4 days to recharge from solar. It would have unlimited range. The limit would be how much food and water you can take with you.
It would be the ultimate zombie apocalypse vehicle.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by Bukes »

Totally! You extend awnings anyway, so replacing those with lighter weight solar panels is no big deal. At 100kwh, If you made it the same voltage as the vehicle pack, then you could connect it in parallel and it wouldn’t even need charge time… it would just be an extended pack for the car.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

That was the plan but you still need some electronics between the packs because they won't be at the same SOC.
The electronics between the caravan and the car wouldn't have to be that big maybe 20 or 30kw. All it would have to do is supply the average power consumption so the car's battery will stay charged.
The main issue I see is the plug between the caravan and the car. It will have to be very well sealed because it is very close to the ground.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by T1 Terry »

francisco.shi wrote: Tue, 01 Feb 2022, 22:37 I think a caravan could have a 100kwh battery under with 3kw solar array that can be extended when parked.
It would be the ultimate getaway rig. Drive for a day then stop for 3 or 4 days to recharge from solar. It would have unlimited range. The limit would be how much food and water you can take with you.
It would be the ultimate zombie apocalypse vehicle.
One of the 3.5 tonne (read 5 tonne) dual wheel jobs at a squeeze can have around 1.5kW of solar attached to the roof, more could slide out/hang off or even deployed via a pantigraph type affair when the second layer travels on top of the mounted panels and deployed out to the sides, front and rear when camped up ..... if you can keep it within the weight restrictions and that one is the killer.
Not only does the van weight have to meet the manufacturers compliance plate, so does the ball weight and combined vehicle mass weight.
A ute type vehicle with a 5th wheeler coupling in the tray over the rear axle greatly improves the whole weight distribution problem, but the combined vehicle mass is still the killer.
To get a high enough combined vehicle mass, the tow vehicle gets pushed up into the heavy vehicle bracket, so a minimum of a light rigid licence is needed, get the 5th wheeler to heavy and it moves into the heavy vehicle bracket and you now need a HC licence .... not sure if they actually do a light combination licence, but it still requires a serious upgrade to the car licence.

This is all part of the cr*p we have to contend with in our line of business, solar/lithium battery/inverter installation for RV's .... just because we can get it all to fit doesn't mean the vehicle won't be over weight and need to be re-engineered to get a heavier allowable gross weight.

The voltage of the battery pack required for the drive motor is another thing to consider, can you also get a 240vac inverter that can handle that voltage?

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francisco.shi
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by francisco.shi »

Some more testing.
I wanted to know how much it would roll in a sharp turn now that the ICE engine is off.
It is still running at half the torque and half top speed with no field weakening on the motors.
I am going to try to get the field weakening working over the weekend. That will increase the top speed and will swap the front motor to one with the original winding so I can get full torque. The current power stage is not big enough to get full torque out of the rewound motor.
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Re: Francisco's Electric Pajero

Post by antiscab »

francisco.shi wrote: Wed, 02 Feb 2022, 13:53 That was the plan but you still need some electronics between the packs because they won't be at the same SOC.
The electronics between the caravan and the car wouldn't have to be that big maybe 20 or 30kw. All it would have to do is supply the average power consumption so the car's battery will stay charged.
The main issue I see is the plug between the caravan and the car. It will have to be very well sealed because it is very close to the ground.
back when we (and by we I mean watching Rob Mason) do dump charging, even with the car battery at low SOC and the dump charge battery at high SOC, for meaningful current to flow there needed to be ~10% difference in cell count. This was with Thundersky LiFePO4

if the cell count is the same, the current flow likely won't be high enough to cause issues.
What will happen is the battery at higher SOC will take more of the load.
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