TooQik's Celica

Post by **TooQik** » Sun, 17 Aug 2014, 21:03

I figured it's about time I pulled my finger out and posted about my conversion in progress.

Vehicle
I'm working on converting a 1976 Toyota Celica RA23 model which I purchased solely for this purpose:

Electric Motor
I decided I wanted to empty my bank account as part of the conversion process, so I'm going the AC route.

My chosen motor is a Siemens 1PV5138-4WS24. I purchased a low use second hand unit from HEC in the Netherlands as pictured here sitting in it's delivery crate:

Inverter
For the inverter I'm using a HEC TI-9030. You can find the specs for this inverter here. Here's a picture of the inverter as it arrived from HEC along with all the required cabling:

Drive line
My intention is to use the existing W50 5 speed gearbox initially and continue to use a clutch. In this regard I've purchased a custom clutch kit from Xtreme Clutch after discussions with them. This kit contains a lightened flywheel, heavy duty pressure plate and upgraded friction disc suited to the existing gearbox and matched to meet the performance requirements of the AC motor.

Given the amount of torque the AC motor is capable of producing, I may need to change the gearbox to a later model Toyota W series box, the clutch setup chosen can be utilised in this case also.

To attach the Siemens motor to the existing gearbox I'm having an adaptor custom made. Dellow Conversions in Sydney have kindly taken on the task of fabricating this based on a design I put together.

Traction Pack
Traction pack nominal voltage will be around the 650 - 700 VDC mark and I'm hoping to build a pack of at least 20kWh.

I'm yet to purchase batteries but am currently looking at EnerDel modules.

Charger
To charge my traction pack I will be using two Brusa NLG513 watercooled units.

DC/DC Converter
I've chosen the Brusa BSC628-12V DC/DC converter for this task.

BMS
Either the Tritium or Elithion BMS - as yet undecided.

Post by **TooQik** » Sun, 17 Aug 2014, 21:29

If anyone knows how to edit posts without having to re-add all the external links please let me know. Each time I've made a change to my above post I have had to relink the pictures, URL and smilie icon, given the amount of corrections I usually need to make this has turned edits into a painful exercise.

Post by **Adverse Effects** » Sun, 17 Aug 2014, 22:43

TooQik wrote: If anyone knows how to edit posts without having to re-add all the external links please let me know.

its a known fault with this forum so just read and reread and reread (and so on and on) before you post it

as for your build / conversion that should be a real goer

Post by **TooQik** » Mon, 18 Aug 2014, 03:41

Thanks Adverse.

I guess that will teach me to try and be more accurate in my ramblings the first time round.

Post by **weber** » Mon, 18 Aug 2014, 17:44

Hi TooQik,

Great to read about your project, which has many similarities to my own (nearly completed) one. By which I mean "emptying my bank account".

That and the 700 V AC drive-train, and the front-engine rear-wheel-drive layout, and keeping the 5 speed box and clutch.

I hadn't heard of those Enerdel modules before. I guess you're thinking about 15 of the 32 Ah 12S2P modules.
http://www.enerdel.com/mp320-049-hc-bo-moxie-battery/
What sort of prices?

I also hadn't heard of that inverter. If Tritium had had a 900 V WaveSculptor available, would you have gone with that?

Regarding the forum's edit mangling bug: There is a better workaround than the "don't make any mistakes" method which is doomed to failure.

Just before I hit the submit button on any post with more than a couple of URLs or images, I take a copy of the post and save it locally. I find it convenient to do so by pasting it into a new email (to no-one), and saving it. Then when I find an error I want to correct, or something I want to add, I do the editing in that email, save it again and copy and paste it to replace the contents of the forum post.

I also recommend the FireFox add-on "Text Area Cache"
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... area-cache
to prevent that other common problem with posting: Losing the whole post when something goes wrong while composing it online. It also lets you get back the unmangled text even _long_after_ you have hit the submit button, provided you have set the option to only remove text from the cache when the cache is full, or only after several days. The default is to remove it after 5 minutes.

Post by **TooQik** » Mon, 18 Aug 2014, 19:44

Hi Weber,

Many thanks for the editing tip. A very handy work around indeed.

I can't say I've lost a whole post yet *touchs wood* but I'll take a look into the FireFox Text Area Cache add-on, it sounds like a life saver for that scenario.

I'm looking at buying the EnerDel modules through Evolve Electrics in the US. The module you linked is basically the module I'm looking at with the only exception being that I'm looking at what they call their B-grade cells - these are cells that have tested below the expected 32 Ah capacity and are only rated for 31 Ah. Here's the link to the modules on their website which gives you pricing also:
http://evolveelectrics.com/enerdel/enerdel-31ah-5c/

The above modules come with lower current rated battery terminals than their 32 Ah counterparts - only 125 A cont., but you can upgrade the terminals to the 160 A cont. units for about $112 USD per module.

When looking at motors and inverters initially I did look at the Tritium Wavesculptor and spoke to Tritium about it. At the time I was looking at the EVO AFM-140 to use as my motor. By the time I was ready to purchase EVO were no longer selling to the general public so I went back to the drawing board and found HEC who could bundle the Siemens motor with one of their inverters. Prior to commiting to puchase from HEC I read in your build thread about the possibility of Tritium producing a 900 V Wavesculptor, so I spoke to them again. Given the time frame to production for their 900 V unit was an unknown quantity I decided to go with the HEC inverter.

Post by **PlanB** » Mon, 18 Aug 2014, 23:34

Hey nice battery packaging, 2p12s @ $585/kwh. Only $10k for a Leaf sized pack.

Post by **TooQik** » Thu, 21 Aug 2014, 22:43

Placed an order for 16 x EnerDel MP310-049 modules today, so will end up with a traction pack of 700 VDC nom. and just under 22kWh rated capacity. All going well, will see the modules arrive by mid October.

Now I just have to work out the best way to mount them and hold them down. Plan is to remove the rear seat and use that space for the battery pack location. This will put the batteries low and in front of the rear axle. The old fuel tank location will be behind and higher than the batteries, so should give a better weight distribution.

I'd like to use existing mounting points if possible for locating the battery pack. I should have 10 existing 12mm bolt points if I use the old fuel tank, back seat and rear seat belt retaining points. Obviously I need to bounce this off my engineer, but as a rule of thumb does anyone know if this would be considered sufficient to hold 300kg @ 20G?

Post by **Johny** » Thu, 21 Aug 2014, 22:57

Off the top of my head, I'd say yes - provided that the actual mounting points can hold 6 tonnes in the body work. I have some figures somewhere for bolt shear and such but I think the bigger issue for 12mm bolts will be the car itself.
That's one seriously sick battery pack.

Post by **TooQik** » Fri, 22 Aug 2014, 22:26

Hi Johny,

Cheers for the reply. I'd be very interested to see the bolt shear figures if you're able to share. Are you able to clarify what you mean by the bigger issue being the car itself?

Here's hoping the battery pack will meet my expectations.

Post by **Johny** » Fri, 22 Aug 2014, 22:58

Hi TooQik. Bolt strength is manufacturer dependent but the difference pales when the body/chassis is taken in to consideration.
For instance this site:
http://www.blacksfasteners.co.nz/assets ... _14-15.pdf
Gives you some idea of the shear strength of a grade 8 x 12mm bolt - 70KN.
That means a single bolt in shear would hold over 7000kg.

When in tension the number of engaged threads come into it. Perhaps I should have just said strength rather than shear strength.

Anyway, the number of M12 bolts you are talking about will be fine as long as the packs are held well and the car mounts are up to it. Some seatbelt captive threads I have seen are pretty suss - then again humans are light.

The way I looked at it was - would I be happy to chain a couple of cars under my car then lift the whole lot with a chain around the battery cradles.

Post by **TooQik** » Fri, 22 Aug 2014, 23:47

Thanks for that, I now understand what you meant by the car itself - the captive thread area that the bolt is attaching to must be of adequate length (depth), contain a minimum number of engageable threads and be in good condition, regardless of the actual bolt's strength characteristics.

Obviously the thread material must be of adequate strength also. It's no good placing the bolt in a stick of butter even if it meets all of the above criteria.

Post by **TooQik** » Thu, 06 Nov 2014, 02:15

Received my finished adapter from Dellow Conversions today...shiny!!!

This is looking at the adapter unassembled from the gearbox side.

The plate on the left will bolt onto the main body on the right and the hub will sit in the centre with two bearings (not in this picture) taking the clutch load. The other part in this picture is a spacer which will slide over the hub and sit between the two bearings.

The hub is designed to emulate a Supra crank and a lightened Supra flywheel will bolt up to this.

All up it weighs just under 18kgs without bearings.

I'm looking forward to putting it all together and making sure I got all the measurements correct.

Post by **TooQik** » Thu, 13 Nov 2014, 02:59

EnerDel modules arrived today from the US...

Did a quick check of voltages and most modules are sitting at 39.0 V or 38.9 V with a single module being the exception and sitting at 38.6 V.

The plan is to mount 12 of these where the rear seat used to be, with the remaining four to be mounted where the fuel tank was. This will push the vehicle weight up in the rear by roughly 150 kg but the final weight distribution shouldn't change too much for the over all conversion, I've calculated it going from a 56:44 (Front:Rear) split to a 48:52 split.

Post by **Richo** » Thu, 13 Nov 2014, 20:26

Oh man they are nice.
::DROOL::

Any clue what the landed cost of a module is per Wh?

Post by **Johny** » Thu, 13 Nov 2014, 21:04

They certainly look like good value.
They list a Power cell and an Energy cell - the Power cell is 5C and the Energy cell is 2C. But the graphs are the same.

I like the low internal resistance.
What BMS have you decided on using TooQik?

Post by **TooQik** » Mon, 17 Nov 2014, 16:20

Hi Richo and Johny, apologies for the late reply, I've been travelling.

Landed these cost roughly $0.98 per Wh with the high current terminals.

I've been talking to HEC regarding a BMS and they're looking at designing their own.

Post by **EV2Go** » Tue, 18 Nov 2014, 17:24

TooQik if the standard W50 is in good condition you shouldn't have any issues using it with that motor.

We used it behind a few 6's and V8's with no to small modifications. If the box is a bit iffy (jumps out of gear etc.) you might want to rebuild it first, as even behind the four banger, with high miles it can wear out.

The other thing you need to consider is that it wont be subject to the same shock loading as it would be behind an ICE. There is no dropping of the clutch at high revs to scare the poo out of the box, as you will be accelerating from stopped with the car in gear and the clutch engaged.

Post by **TooQik** » Wed, 19 Nov 2014, 03:37

Hi EV2G0, yes I'm hoping that the current W50 is up to the task. The current box seems to be in quite good condition and, as you know, they have a good reputation of being able to hold power/torque being used in many conversions over the years. What ICE motors did you run them behind?

I've already managed to pick up a W55 just in case something does go wrong with the current box. I'm very tempted to use it for the conversion right away given the W55 is 5 kg lighter as well as being stronger than the W50.

On a side note, the W55 came complete with a fully functioning 1985 Toyota Corona on LPG attached to it.

Post by **EV2Go** » Wed, 19 Nov 2014, 03:43

A couple of hot Holden 6's and a very mild 308 driven sensibly. Provided everything is good nick they will take the power quite well, but if a gear is worn or a syncro is marginal, that extra bit of slack does open a door to taking off teeth more readily. They have fairly wide and sturdy gears for originally being a four cylinder box.

If memory serves me right they are steel gears. Also remember my sister managed to damage a few teeth in her stock 1978-80 Celica, but it had high klms.

Post by **poprock** » Wed, 19 Nov 2014, 13:38

re gearbox; in 86 my son and I put a 253 into an EH with a 2.78 ratio Torana diff. It was engineer approved on condition we did not hack the floor pan. This ruled out a 5 speed so we used a 74? Corona cast iron 4 speed. It was the strongest part of the car.Axles snapped but the gearbox held.

Post by **EV2Go** » Wed, 19 Nov 2014, 15:29

Did you use a 2.78 banjo or 10 bolt Salisbury? Even though a claytons couldn't pull a skin off a rice pudding, it could still manage to snap banjo axles. I remember one day taking off from a T intersection in my HQ panel van when I first got my license and snapping one. If my old man wasn't sitting right next to me he would have never believed I wasn't doing burnouts when it happened

The older 4 speed cast iron box weren't a bad box either, not as good as the later alloy box but still a half decent box.

Post by **TooQik** » Wed, 19 Nov 2014, 15:45

Cheers guys.

This is actually my forth classic Celica, with my first, second and third cars all being 1976 models before I moved onto a WRX. My second and third Celicas ran later model turbo charged motors through the standard drive line and while I've never had a gearbox issue over the years I did manage to blow up two standard diffs. The last time a diff went I had a tooth actually penetrate the diff housing.

Like yourself EV2Go, the diff went bang during normal driving.

One of the reasons I chose the Celica as my donor car was the abundance of drive line options you can fit with minimal work.

A lot of the rotary guys used the earlier Toyota 4 speeds also.

Post by **poprock** » Wed, 19 Nov 2014, 15:57

It was the standard bolt in centre EH type,but the Torana was a local taxi that ended up at the wreckers. Maybe it was a ratio especially for the taxi?

(yes, a 4 door Torana as a taxi.After all, it was the 70's)

Post by **EV2Go** » Wed, 19 Nov 2014, 15:59

I am actually looking forward to seeing how well it goes, based on the batteries, controller and motor it should go half decent. Have you or any of the guys of the forums run any performance formulas?

Edit:

poprock1 wrote: It was the standard bolt in centre EH type,but the Torana was a local taxi that ended up at the wreckers. Maybe it was a ratio especially for the taxi? (yes, a 4 door Torana as a taxi.After all, it was the 70's)

OK a banjo. No 2.78's weren't anything special they were in lots of vehicles. At one point you could barely give them away, but as fuel got more expensive they actually started to become more desirable.