TheMechwarrior's - Road Motorcycle EV Project

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
Nevilleh
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Post by Nevilleh » Wed, 10 Oct 2012, 19:45

Yes, you could strap a generator to the wheels, but you will only get something useful out of it when going down hill. At all other times it will take more power out of your battery than it can put in!
If you use a brushless motor, you get regenerative braking which is the same thing.
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2. YOU CAN ONLY BREAK EVEN AT ABSOLUTE ZERO
3. YOU CAN'T GET TO ABSOLUTE ZERO.

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Post by TheMechwarrior » Wed, 10 Oct 2012, 20:00

Thanks Nevilleh,

I was just thinking of the dynamo on the front of my old push bike and thinking why can't I do that?

Just found this mob, interesting builds!
http://motoczysz.com/motorcycles
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Post by TheMechwarrior » Wed, 10 Oct 2012, 20:25

Found these: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/17042789/7 ... 0Ah_A1.pdf

http://www.dowkokam.com/cell-specifications.php

Would "only" need 26 of them to give me the range I need...I'm expecting they are very expensive. Will see if I can get any prices.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 10 Oct 2012, 21:13

Kokams are very sought after by the serious RC crowd. In that environment they don't last very long but would be longer-lasting if treated better. They are the most expensive cells around. Not sure where I got this info.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 10 Oct 2012, 21:18

Found it - it was here (forum) then I went looking elsewhere.
viewtopic.php?title=geerants-magnatron& ... 300#p29149

"Then came the Kokam Lipo batteries. They were by far the best battery as far as pack weight goes and will give the best range of any battery currently available. However these batteries are extremely expensive and they have substantially less charge/discharge cycles than most other battery types."

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Post by TheMechwarrior » Wed, 10 Oct 2012, 21:48

Thanks Johny, I saw a cycle life of 800 to 1500 depending on the battery.

I'll keep kicking the can on this and see what I can manage.
I'm also continuing discussions with Zero Motorcycles.
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Post by 4Springs » Wed, 10 Oct 2012, 23:04

Another option is to investigate other charging options at work. Do you know who owns the property opposite? They may allow us to charge there. Or charge in Westbury and walk in.

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Post by jonescg » Wed, 10 Oct 2012, 23:31

Zero has been using EIG cells, which use a Li(NiMnCo)O2 anode. They offer 175 Wh/kg and one of the highest volumetric energy densities I've seen (370 Wh/l).

However...

Not a lot of testing has gone on in the real world, and I think they are being used in Nissan Leaf packs; they're apparently not really enjoying the heat. Not really a problem on motorcycles though.

Provided you keep the discharge rates below 5C they should perform as the manufacturer intended.
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 11 Oct 2012, 00:26

TheMechwarrior wrote: I can't get enough gains out of strapping a generator(s) to the wheel(s)/powertrain?

I certainly hope you realise that you can only get power from the generator to replace friction braking; generating while driving will cost more battery energy than it generates. I proudly obey the laws of physics, and you should too! Image

It's generally considered that adding a generator for regen braking is not worth the effort, weight, space, and cost.
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Post by Johny » Thu, 11 Oct 2012, 13:42

jonescg wrote:Not a lot of testing has gone on in the real world, and I think they are being used in Nissan Leaf packs; they're apparently not really enjoying the heat.
You are correct in that the LEAF uses Lithium Manganese Dioxide (LiMnCO2) cells. The heat problems have really only been experienced in Arizona in the USA - that place is like a sauna. The cells in the LEAF are contained in metal boxes - four cells to a box. The boxes have air circulating around them. In a typical Australian climate I would expect that they are fine however I would have temperature monitoring in them and a reliable BMS and charger as they are subject to the same problems as LiPo - bursting and burning.

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Post by TheMechwarrior » Fri, 12 Oct 2012, 02:46

I got a reply from Zero Motorcycles regarding prices for the powertrain options they sell independantly of the bikes:
PowerTrains

This is the price list for the 2012 range, the 2013 prices are still to be set.

Retail by unit

Battery pack & charger
ZF3 $4,195
ZF6 $6,195
ZF9 $8,195

Motor
Motor 14 $995 with controller $1,795
Motor 29 $1,195 with controller $2,095

Full kit
ZF3 with Motor 14 $5,695
ZF6 with Motor 29 $8,195
ZF9 with Motor 29 $10,195
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Post by Richo » Fri, 12 Oct 2012, 20:40

zeva wrote: Regarding motors, have you looked at the Motenergy ME0913? Couple it with a 96V BLDC Kelly controller and you'll have a comparable system

TheMechwarrior wrote:Motor 29 $1,195 with controller $2,095
Given that the Motenergy ME0913 looks suspiciously like the "motor 29".
I'd buy the ME0913 at evworks for $850.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by jonescg » Fri, 12 Oct 2012, 23:26

Richo - the difference might be the Zero motor could be using thicker magnets and a smaller air gap. Makes quite a difference.
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Post by Richo » Mon, 15 Oct 2012, 20:48

I'd still go evworks since the ME0913 is 30kW vs motor-29 20kW peak.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by TheMechwarrior » Mon, 15 Oct 2012, 21:59

Thanks Richo, the ME0913 and the L91-4003 are two motors still in the mix.
Just waiting on some emails to come back from cell manufacturers.
I'm chasing up prices on GEB16215160 (1s4p x 30) or GEB 9989182 (1s5p x 36) since they take up so little volume and have great cycle life. When you combine those two elements that's gotta spell expensive I'm guessing.
4Springs wrote: Another option is to investigate other charging options at work. Do you know who owns the property opposite? They may allow us to charge there. Or charge in Westbury and walk in.


Thanks 4Springs, a bloody good suggestion, I'll follow that up!

Cheers,

Mech.
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Post by Richo » Tue, 16 Oct 2012, 20:52

The GEB16215160 just look like standard LiFePO4 in a pouch.
The cycle life look like typical LiFePO4 cells.
But their Discharge rate is a little on the low side.
You would struggle to get 30kW out of a 10kWh pack.

The GEB 9989182 appear to be Li-Ion(3.7V) so the cycle life would be worse.
Given thier low discharge ratings I wouldn't buy them.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by TheMechwarrior » Wed, 17 Oct 2012, 00:24

Thanks Richo.

Looks like I may have a few contenders for the bike finally, will follow-up tonight and see how I go this week.

Cheers.
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Post by TheMechwarrior » Wed, 17 Oct 2012, 17:44

These are the bikes that have been offered to me:
1. Triumph Sprint ST955
2. Triumph Sprint ST1050
3. Yamaha FJR-1300
4. Honda VFR800

-approx $1500 for a complete rolling chassis.

Just chasing up year of manufacture and some pics, I'd prefer either of the last 2 with a preference for the FJR due to its size.
I can get cheap aftermarket full fairing kits for both those last two.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 17 Oct 2012, 18:02

Would the shaft drive on the FJR present more problems than chain drive?

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Post by TheMechwarrior » Wed, 17 Oct 2012, 19:17

Not so much I hope, I've seen kits to deal with this...now is a good time to sort it out though, thanks for the reminder.
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Post by TheMechwarrior » Thu, 25 Oct 2012, 15:47

Update:

The ebike is on hold for a while.
I managed to secure my motorcycle (2002 Honda ST1100P) and it's in fine working order so I'll keep it that way. When it comes to the end of it's life I'll have the perfect donor bike for my project.

In the mean time I'll keep studying/gearing up for EV bike build.

People have asked about my methods for finding a suitable rolling chassis:

1. Decide on 1 or 2 bikes maximum as wreckers have no time for fielding broad range requests. For me it was ZZR1100/ZX10 or bigger.
My reason was it was heavy, had a lot of fairing to cover the ugly batteries. Full fairing kits are available from china for less than $500. Plenty of room for electrics.

2. Search state by state for wreckers and shoot off an email to them all. For me I stuck to Eastern Australian states, so I had roughly 30 wreckers on my list.

3. Ensure you stipulate rolling chassis is not to be a SWO (statutory write off). Must be a RWO (repairable write off).

4. I managed to find a number of suitable rolling chassis and they all come in around $1,500 but it is possible to get them cheaper.

5. You then need to organise freight.

6. By the time you spend $1,500 on a chassis, ~$500 on flights etc for inspection in person, ~$500 in freight to get it home you may want to consider jumping on www.bikesales.com.au and simply buying a complete running bike as cheap as you can locally.

For me I got a little carried away at that last step and decided to buy the bike I've always wanted. Been 15 years since I had a bike and the dream of riding again got the better of me.

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Post by Carv'n Marv'n » Tue, 30 Oct 2012, 16:47

Are you in Hobart Mechwarrior??

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 30 Oct 2012, 18:05

TheMechwarrior wrote:I managed to secure my motorcycle (2002 Honda ST1100P) and it's in fine working order so I'll keep it that way. When it comes to the end of it's life I'll have the perfect donor bike for my project.


Being a Honda, that should be in about 2031...
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Post by TheMechwarrior » Tue, 30 Oct 2012, 19:31

Carv'n Marv'n wrote: Are you in Hobart Mechwarrior??


Much further north than that, Spreyton mate.
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