Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 12 Jul 2012, 20:47

Nevilleh wrote: I don't know where you got that sort of price from, sound way too much to me.

I got that price from working out what is required and adding the price of the parts together.
Nevilleh wrote:I could build a boost converter to take say 150-odd volts input and step it up to 650V which is enough to power a variable frequency 3 -phase motor controller .. I can't see the cost being all that high.

The Spec I drew up was a full bridge using a tranformer.
It was also from 48V as after that the batteries get a bit tingley to touch Image
Nevilleh wrote:Might be an interesting concept to think about.

There is a thread that AC motor started on this subject.
I lost interest after the price.
Once again I also mention that the inductor for 100kW isn't small either (or cheap).
And I doubt substituting ultra-caps with a smaller(20kW) converter will be any cheaper.

Here is the thread should you wish to persue it:
viewtopic.php?p=37348&t=3101&title=12vo ... ers#p37348
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Richo » Thu, 12 Jul 2012, 20:53

Tritium_James wrote: Nevilleh, don't forget your boost converter needs to be bidirectional, as you need to handle regen energy too. It's not completely trivial.


A transformer with 2 full bridges would do it.
But as I said before I don't think it's worth it.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by Richo » Tue, 21 Aug 2012, 20:35

I thought I'd amuse myself by sticking an oversized rim on the Handi Image
Totally illegal and impractical going from a 12" to 17" rim. Image

Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by bladecar » Wed, 22 Aug 2012, 03:45


With the 17" wheels, it would become the AC Handi Cruiser, complete with in-built undulation sound effects. With the regulators, jealousy is easy to understand.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 24 Jan 2013, 06:33

Well now it's time to take the engine out.
I need that flywheel to make an adaptor.

Off come all the wires - Kinda looks neat without them.
Image

Off comes the plastic
Image

And the metal.
Image

Ready to pull it out.
Image

And easy as pie (not) it's out
Image

One stinky greasy motor Image
Image

Loads of room for a motor or two Image
Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Richo » Thu, 24 Jan 2013, 06:51

All the other petrol parts are out too.
No fuel tank, exhaust pipes, radiator, fuel or sludgey oil.

Here is the breakdown of my weight loss program:
11.5kg Exhaust system
5.0kg Cooling system (Incl Juices)
39.0kg Fuel system (Incl fuel)
88.0kg Engine+clutch+starter (Incl Oil)

TOTAL 143.5kg

The Gearbox is 26kg but I need to put that back in.
The 12V Lead acid is 9kg but I will replace that with a smaller SLA.
There is still some misc wires and pipes to still pull off but won't change the weight much.

So at this stage the final weight after conversion is looking at about 60kg heaver than the stock curb weight with a 14kWh pack.
Which is still a couple of hundered kg away from the GVM - benefit of a comercial vehicle!

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by BigMouse » Thu, 24 Jan 2013, 14:16

It begins! It's always helpful when people share specific weights as you have. As I'm sure you're aware, it's valuable information for those considering a conversion of the same (or similar) car.

After taking 140+kg out, that shell must weigh somewhere around 600kg as it sits! The lightest it will ever be ;-)

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Post by Richo » Thu, 24 Jan 2013, 20:42

Yeah should be ~560kg if I put the panels and gearbox back in.
Or abour 520kg as it is.
Supposedly, according to the specs, there is also about 12kg of grime sand and aftermarket additions.
So won't quite hit the 500kg mark Image
Still not bad for something with airbags!

I'll be rolling the car out on the grass and giving the engine bay a high pressure clean.

Since I couldn't source a flywheel and clutch assy my next job is to pull the gearbox off the motor.
I can then get some measurements to make a shaft adaptor to fit the clutch on to the induction motor.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Stiive » Thu, 24 Jan 2013, 21:21

Richo wrote: I had some electronic parts left from when I was doing my BMW.
So I'll scrape the rest together throw them all in a box and hook it to the motor.
That'll be my motor controller ~100kVA.


Got a thread or any information on this controller of yours Richo?
Rgds,
Stiive

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Post by Johny » Thu, 24 Jan 2013, 22:16

Bravo! Go Richo go!

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Post by Richo » Fri, 25 Jan 2013, 00:45

There is no separate thread for my controller.
I'll probably post some pics here soon.

I'm currently deciding if I should use air cooled heatsink or liquid.
A heatsink is easy but does make the controller box that much larger.
It would then restrict the placement in the engine bay.
Also it is not as good as a liquid cooled unit.
The downside is liquid cooling blocks for IGBT's is a bit harder to get hold of.
And is likely to be more expensive.

I may end up sitting in front of a mill and manually machining a custom block.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Greg partridge » Fri, 25 Jan 2013, 02:36

What batteries are you planning on using? I have just brought a '93 Mira similar to this to convert.

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Post by Stiive » Fri, 25 Jan 2013, 03:18

Richo wrote: There is no separate thread for my controller.
I'll probably post some pics here soon.


Yeh, please do.
Richo wrote: I'm currently deciding if I should use air cooled heatsink or liquid.


Liquid I think is your best bet for Australian conditions (esp Perth). You'll save money on not having to massively oversize the IGBTs
Richo wrote: I may end up sitting in front of a mill and manually machining a custom block.


Yup, this is the way to do it. Should be able to pick up a piece of Al billet cheap - if you have access to a mill, its a no brainer
Rgds,
Stiive

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Post by Canberra32 » Fri, 25 Jan 2013, 03:24

I gotta ask what 14kwh pack are you thinking that weighs a couple of hundred kgs?
The 27kwh one I put up weighs 268....

Are the super caps heavy?


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Post by Richo » Fri, 25 Jan 2013, 16:49

At this stage it'll be sticking with headways 10Ah for batteries.
By the time I add a battery box, conatctors, fuses, cabling, BMS, battery links and vaccum etc it will be about 200kg.
The batteries by themsleves don't weigh that much.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 26 Jan 2013, 02:20

Canberra32 wrote: I gotta ask what 14kwh pack are you thinking that weighs a couple of hundred kgs?
The 27kwh one I put up weighs 268....

We happen to have been doing battery boxen today. Our 60 cell box with cells, metalwork, links, BMUs, cables but not contactors or fuses or boxes for those came to 112.5 kg. So that's 1.875 kg per 1.54 kg cell (40 Ah Sky Energy / CALB, blue SE series), or an overhead not including contactors and fuses of 100% x 1.875 / 1.54 - 100% = 22%.

I imagine the overhead for 10 Ah Headways would be higher, and of course for lower voltage systems slightly lower (larger cells, hence lower overhead of plastic, terminals, links, etc).
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Post by Richo » Tue, 29 Jan 2013, 20:36

The 200kg is for all the eV parts - not just the batteries.
I just mentioned that this conversion would be using a 14kWh pack.
200kg is only an estimate at this stage anyway.
It's all irrelevant anyway as I'd still have to add another 200kg to get close to the GVM.

I Got the gearbox off the motor on the weekend.
So I have drawn up a flywheel to motor adaptor.
This attaches to the motor shaft.
Hopefully I can get this made in the next couple of weeks.

The complete clutch assy is pretty heavy ~10kg.
I might ask a machinist to remove the teeth and part of the flywheel mass.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by Richo » Wed, 30 Jan 2013, 04:03


Here is the flywheel
Image

The rear shows the extra mass added sticking out that I don't need anymore.
Image


A shot of my motor next to the incomplete controller.
For the prototype I am putting it in a steel enclosure.
Image
The orange cable under it is the 50mm^2 battery cable.
The silver cable is the VFD motor controller to motor cable.
It's a 3 core with earth and shield.

Until I sort out the IGBT cooling I can't mount the IGBT's
which then means I have to wait to mount the Drivers
and the blue caps then sit horizontally on top of all that.
Where the blue caps are sitting now will be the Mainboard.
The open hole at the front will be connectors for the low voltage (12V) stuff.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by Stiive » Wed, 30 Jan 2013, 14:24

Richo wrote:
A shot of my motor next to the incomplete controller.
For the prototype I am putting it in a steel enclosure.
Image
The orange cable under it is the 50mm^2 battery cable.
The silver cable is the VFD motor controller to motor cable.
It's a 3 core with earth and shield.

Until I sort out the IGBT cooling I can't mount the IGBT's
which then means I have to wait to mount the Drivers
and the blue caps then sit horizontally on top of all that.
Where the blue caps are sitting now will be the Mainboard.
The open hole at the front will be connectors for the low voltage (12V) stuff.


Nice. What control algorithm(s) you gonna use?
Rgds,
Stiive

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Post by Richo » Wed, 30 Jan 2013, 20:47

Sensored DTC with SVM.

Sorry I can't bring myself to use V/F with lookup tables even tho it may work in this application.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Stiive » Wed, 30 Jan 2013, 20:51

Richo wrote: Sensored DTC with SVM.


Cool... why'd you choose this over FOC? I'm thinking of porting soon.

Richo wrote:Sorry I can't bring myself to use V/F with lookup tables even tho it may work in this application.


Don't blame you...
Rgds,
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Post by Canberra32 » Wed, 30 Jan 2013, 21:42

Any reason you are actually keeping the flywheel?
My understanding is that you can clutch straight to the adaptor because a flywheel is to maintain rpm component weight to avoid engine missing.
And the torque in an electric is different so so I can't see what use the flywheel serves.

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Post by BigMouse » Wed, 30 Jan 2013, 22:44

Canberra32 wrote: Any reason you are actually keeping the flywheel?
My understanding is that you can clutch straight to the adaptor because a flywheel is to maintain rpm component weight to avoid engine missing.
And the torque in an electric is different so so I can't see what use the flywheel serves.


I can't speak for Richo, but I'm keeping the flywheel in my conversion to ensure quick shifts. I just don't buy the argument I've heard from some that you can rely on the synchros to match the speed of the motor to that of the input shaft. The rotating mass of the motor, adapter, and rotor is FAR more than a clutch disk made mostly from lightweight friction material and thin steel fins.

You're correct, the mass of the flywheel is not needed in an EV. Also, the clutch doesn't need to slip in an EV, except very briefly during gear changes. This allows you to remove a LOT of material from the flywheel without having to worry about heat buildup. I'm planning on getting an aluminum flywheel for mine, and even lightening that further by removing the starter gear teeth and cutting lightening holes where possible.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 31 Jan 2013, 00:15

Yep just for quick changes.
If I ditch the clutch it is only the rotor and coupling spinning which is much less than the original ICE but still in my opinion not fast enough.

I am keeping the flywheel because it already has the pin and bolt pattern for the disk and clutch cover.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by BigMouse » Thu, 31 Jan 2013, 00:41

Does the daihatsu flywheel have the pilot bearing as well? I know the BMW one doesn't. Not sure If I'll be putting one in the end of the motor shaft, or adding a bit to the depth and putting it in the coupler.

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