Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

Introducing my Daihatsu Handi Sports

Image

Well the graphics on the side claim it's the "sports" version. Image

The Handi L701 is the follow on from the Mira/Handivan.
It is actually the same as a Cuore except it has no rear seat.
So is made as a commercial vehicle and registered as a 2-seater.
With no rear seat there is plenty of room in the back for useless junk.

Image

Also as a commercial vehicle it has the usual "TAC" on the side.

Image

They came standard with the EJ-DE 989cc(1L) motor with a whopping 41kW and 88Nm.



So my aim is to pull out all the ICE bits and replace it with eV bits.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

I have a spare gearbox from a Sirion.
The Sirion used the same 1L engine.
The difference is the diff ratio is 4.500:1 rather than the Handi's 4.266:1
The Sirion is a heavier car so needs the higher ratio to get any acceleration.

I found an Industrial 4kW 4-pole motor kicking around a salvage yard.
Well I hope it's 4kW the label is beat-up and worn.
Here it is next to the gearbox.
I spent all my time cleaning the motor - not the gearbox Image

Image



Now I am on the hunt for a clutch and flywheel so the adaptor plate can be made.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3731
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Johny »

Richo wrote:Well I hope it's 4kW the label is beat-up and worn.
Here it is next to the gearbox.
What is the frame size Richo?

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

It's 112-frame which leads me to believe it's 4kW.
It's basically the biggest motor I can squeeze in the engine bay.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3731
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Johny »

Sounds pretty good. If you squeeze 4 x Nominal Torque out of it you should be better off thean the ICE it replaces (you already knew that!).

Faz
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue, 05 Jul 2011, 16:43

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Faz »

Oh God, please let the first part of the conversion be a paint job. Image

User avatar
BigMouse
Senior Member
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu, 28 Oct 2010, 02:39
Real Name: Vincent Tannahill
Location: Silicon Valley
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by BigMouse »

Awesome! The mighty car mods guys will love this! Marty has just finished swapping a sirion engine/transmission into his Cuore (same as your Handi). Very cool car. He swears he'll let me convert one for him some day. What are you going to do for a controller?

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

I expect the electric motor to beat the original ICE.
For laugh I intend to have the Handi on the Dyno to see how many ponies are still hanging around before I rip out the ICE.

There a few small dings and dent like most 10yr old cars so I want to paint it but isn't much of a priority.
Any thought's on colour?
Racing Red
Enviormental green
Electric Blue...
I can use MSpaint now if that helps Image

I had some electronic parts left from when I was doing my BMW.
So I'll scrape the rest together throw them all in a box and hook it to the motor.
That'll be my motor controller ~100kVA.

I'll still use headway cells unless something better comes along before I buy the full pack.
I have 3kWh already for testing the controller and running to the local pub and back.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4094
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by coulomb »

Looks like a fun, light vehicle for a conversion.
Richo wrote: I found an Industrial 4kW 4-pole motor kicking around a salvage yard.
Well I hope it's 4kW the label is beat-up and worn.

It's presumably a 415 V nominal motor, or 400 V if you are lucky (and still make the nameplate power). Is that in star or delta? If delta, you're going to have a hard time over-voltaging it enough to make much power.

Or maybe you're planning to do a rewire or rewind?

Maybe you can figure out the power from the current figure(s). Are these discernible?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

It's 415V in delta.
After 3kW most manufacturers change from star to delta at the same voltage.
I probably should have gone for a 3kW but wanted the physically biggest motor that would fit in.

I haven't pulled the ends off to look at the internal wiring situation.
But I have planned to pay for a rewind.
I'll do some testing first before I rewind.
My calcs indicate that I should be able to achieve 50kph as it is with the small test pack I have.
So fine for running around the neighbourhood working out controller bugs.

Yeah power will be down until I get a bigger pack and/or do the rewind.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4094
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by coulomb »

Richo wrote: Yeah power will be down until I get a bigger pack and/or do the rewind.

This morning, Weber and I were just trying to remember the topology for his theoretical boosting 3-phase controller topology. From big batteries and step up DC converters:

Image

Maybe since you are building your own controller and have a high voltage motor and a low-ish voltage test pack, you might consider experimenting with this topology?

You need to be careful with the PWM ratio (e.g. 10% PWM on the bottom transistor would produce a 9x boost from the pack voltage, which would probably kill the IGBTs in short order). We also have not considered whether the capacitors need to be there (I think they need to be commoned to the positive pack rail, but it should make little difference), and we have not considered where any snubber capacitors or networks need to go. [ Edit: Weber is certain that capacitors need to be as shown. ]

Oh, and you need three non-trivially sized inductors as well. But perhaps this means that you can get a high powered battery charger for the cost of some contactors and mains wiring (since you will have the reactors and electronics for a single or three phase battery charger already present in the buck-boosting motor controller). "All you need" is some clever software Image .

But it's an interesting idea to keep the high voltage inside the one box (the boosting motor controller), and have a more moderate pack voltage (say around 320 - 400 VDC). Oh, and possibly save yourself the need for a rewind, if you can find or specify a 400 V star motor of suitable power. Or in your case, you might be able to get a bit more than 50 km/h from the motor in 415 V delta configuration. I suppose there are those that will say that ~ 415 V fed to a 230 V nominal motor isn't enough overvoltaging.

Of course if the idea doesn't work, then it's not so interesting. I'd love to see someone try it, or alternatively point out why it won't work or won't be practical.

Edit: I strongly suggest that any further discussion on topology, etc, be continued in the big batteries and step up DC converters thread. I know how annoying it can be to have a build thread sidelined. Sorry, richo Image
Last edited by coulomb on Thu, 05 Jul 2012, 08:21, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

AMPrentice
Senior Member
Posts: 401
Joined: Tue, 05 Aug 2008, 19:30
Location: down south

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by AMPrentice »

Nothing wrong with the paint, white is perfect for hot days and easy to maintain, peeps forget how good white is as a colour. Leave it as is, focus on using a heat gun to remove the stickers and then some cut/polish.

The stickers are better than a paint job like on tradie vans.
So many themes possible also Japan sells retro body styling bits for them.
Last edited by AMPrentice on Mon, 30 Jan 2012, 08:57, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

No Queen, No Prime Minister, No hierarchical system to break down our communities
Never vote Labour, Liberal or Maggots like them.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

coulomb wrote: Oh, and you need three non-trivially sized inductors as well.


I see this point as the biggest problem with this alternative topology.
I would think the rewind will be less than three inductors to boost the voltage.

I have to buy the batteries anyway for the range so it doesn't matter if I have a higher voltage in the end.
And to be honest 300V vs 600V is a killer either way.
But I do agree there are advantages for suiting "off-the shelf" stuff if the voltage is kept around 320V.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2754
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by weber »

Richo wrote:I would think the rewind will be less than three inductors to boost the voltage.

I expect you're right, but what worries me, with our ABB 131008-ASE motor (132-frame 2-pole 22 kW continuous at 400 V star 50 Hz) is that I've heard of one rewinder who says this motor cannot exist -- that it's impossible to get a 22 kW rating in a 132-frame. This makes me worry that if anyone ever unwound it they would never get it back anywhere near 22 kW again. It appears to be wound with 8 parallel strands already.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

Mmmm that is a problem.
That would be winding at it's peak/limit.

Still it makes me wonder if every other manufacturer only makes 7.5kW in a 132-frame how is ABB able to suddenly able to triple it?
Normally when one is better than another it is only by a small margin.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

If a 7.5kW motor in a 132-frame is typically 85% efficient then 1.1kW is dissapated as heat.
Now if the motor is 22kW but still in a 1-32 frame and can only dissapate 1.1kW of heat that is an efficiency of 95%.

I wouldn't say it can't exist I would just say it wouldn't normally exist at typical industrial induction motor prices.
Even the 10% jump in efficiency can't be solely attributed to the windings.
So you may not get out 22kW again after a rewind but I doubt it would drop back to 7.5kW.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

For those who like pretty graphs I have down roll down tests to measure the aerodynamics of the Handi.

This is in kW to see the power required at a given speed
Image

This is in Wh/km to see the range at a given speed.
Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

Disclaimer:

Your Handi may have different aerodynamics to mine if you've added useless bonnet scoops, phat tyres and a pram handle Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4094
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by coulomb »

Richo wrote: I wouldn't say it can't exist I would just say it wouldn't normally exist at typical industrial induction motor prices.

Well, it (our ABB 131008-ASE motor) does cost about 2.5x a "normal" ~$1000 motor in the 15-22 kW range. (If indeed that is the norm.)
Last edited by coulomb on Tue, 31 Jan 2012, 08:08, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4094
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by coulomb »

Richo wrote: For those who like pretty graphs I have down roll down tests to measure the aerodynamics of the Handi.


Hey, not bad.

For comparison, our estimate of power needed for our MX-5:

Image

For easy reference, your Handi's graph:

Image

Wow. So yours needs 13 kW @ 100 km/h, verses our 18 kW at that speed. Ours are just estimates; I guess we should do some real tests one day.

[ Edit: Our rolling resistance seems way higher; maybe we have a bad estimate for that. ]

[ Edit2: And a graph for a Mira, courtesy of Tritium_James, from this post: ]

Image
Last edited by coulomb on Wed, 11 Jul 2012, 17:44, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

Mine are actual tests I did one morning.
The data I collected were all within 3%.
So I'm pretty confident that it is correct.

It is only actual mechanical power and does not include losses from the clutch assembly, flywheel and motor.
The roll down tests only collect the total power which includes the rolling resistance.
I can extract rolling resistance but is not used in any calcs I do.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Tritium_James
Senior Member
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed, 04 Mar 2009, 17:15
Real Name: James Kennedy
Contact:

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Tritium_James »

My data (for the Mira) is from the workshop manual for the car, so it should be accurate... that's for the late 1990's model.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

Now for the weights.

Driver front = 221.5kg (31.5%)
Passenger front = 221.5kg (31.5%)
Driver Rear = 128.5kg (18.3%)
Passenger rear = 131.0kg (18.7%)

Total = 702.5kg
Front/rear = 63% / 37%

The car on paper seems a bit front heavy.
But that's what you'd expect from a passenger car with the rear seat removed.
The extra weight on the passenger rear is because of the extra bits for the fuel filler.
Other than that it is pretty well balance left to right.
The fuel tank was full at the time of measurement (hopefully it's last refill!)

Edit: y oh y must my keyboard spell wrong...
Last edited by Richo on Sun, 05 Feb 2012, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by Richo »

Here is the baseline dyno plot for the original ICE.
The power/Force is taken from the wheels.
Image
The guy doing the testing indicated that typically the HP at the wheels is the kW at the motor.
The Dyno result (not shown here) gave 37.7HP menas that there is approx 37kW at the motor.
Which means 5 ponies have gone out to pasture Image
Last edited by Richo on Mon, 06 Feb 2012, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

antiscab
Senior Member
Posts: 2622
Joined: Mon, 26 Nov 2007, 05:39
Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

Richo's AC Handi Sports

Post by antiscab »

presumably thats the dyno graph for the old petrol engine?

unless you did the conversion over the weekend?

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

Post Reply