Johny's Electric Vogue

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Johny
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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 01:50

OH - it's a white chinagraph and it drew on the tailshaft really easily. I wrapped it in blue tape a year ago when the wood split.

Conclusion. It isn't tailshaft deflection.

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Post by Jeff Owen » Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:52

Johny
It seems to me that the vibration problem is coming from inside the back axle housing. Possibly wear or damage to the diff as indicated by the excessive backlash you mentioned earlier.

Possibly a damaged or bent half shaft (are they called this on RWD). Maybe you could use the handbrake to lock each back wheel separately to test for this.

As I understand, you are currently carrying out tests with the car supported with the back axle on blocks. How about supporting the car under the body so that the back axle is free to move and see if the axle vibrates.







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Post by acmotor » Wed, 22 May 2013, 06:27

Agreed, that baby is running sweet, though it was hard to pick your vibration in the audio.
Now, how about axial rather than radial vibration.
I come back to the end float of the emotor bearings.

Another though is.... did that spline coupling have a coil spring internally to keep a pre-load on bearings either end of shaft ?
Splines sometimes have a (quite heavy) compression spring to reduce end float.


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Post by coulomb » Wed, 22 May 2013, 13:35

acmotor wrote: ... did that spline coupling have a coil spring internally to keep a pre-load on bearings either end of shaft ?
Splines sometimes have a (quite heavy) compression spring to reduce end float.

And if it didn't, maybe it should have. Axial vibration should be easy to detect with a strobe, or even just using your camera in movie mode. Some white dots on the shaft may be needed for reference.

If it's the rear half-shafts or diff wear, I would expect the noise to sound louder near the rear of the car. A movie with sound on *might* be able to detect that, even if the human ear can't.

Edit: we already have some movies, perhaps not ideally set up; maybe studying those frame by frame will show something. Look for where the shaft changes diameter; otherwise it's a smooth black cylinder showing a different smooth black area each frame.
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Post by bladecar » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:09

Hi Johny,

Just listening to the noise, I tend to think of the drum brakes. How do the brakes feel when you apply them very gently. Is there any out-of-round at all? I mean, in the bad old days, I remember out-of-round contact surface of the drums having that general vibe (in the way of "The Castle").   I know this is simplistic and you should definitely have noticed any of this but a shoe frozen and just touching an out-of-round drum is my first point of attention.

Further to that, another variation would be where the brakes are incorrectly adjusted. Instead of the shoes being adjusted close to the drums and then the handbrake adjusted, the shoes or one set of them are not adjusted close to the drum but instead the handbrake has been tightened up so that the ends of one set of shoes are "propping against a slightly-out-of-round drum".

And finally, if the handbrake cable (if it has one) is not releasing completely and resulting in the same outcome.
Last edited by bladecar on Wed, 22 May 2013, 05:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:31

Concur totally bladecar. I just listed to the second video several times and I wouldn't be looking at the motor or the tail shaft, it is something around the brake area.

If you listen very closely at the beginning of the second video the vibration is there from the very start. It sounds like the drum is out of round, not quite a dragging sound of a brake shoe, but something of a wobble noise, perhaps even a wheel bearing or bent axle. But from the video I would be looking in the diff area.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:35

bladecar wrote: Hi Johny,

Just listening to the noise, I tend to think of the drum brakes.
Good pick up - but I have run it without the drums on. The noise at the start is indeed the drums momentarily sraping as I had the handbrake on to remove the rear wheels earlier. Sorry - it's not the drums. The vibration is also at tailshaft speed - not wheel speed.
Last edited by Johny on Wed, 22 May 2013, 08:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:38

EV2Go wrote: Concur totally bladecar. I just listed to the second video several times and I wouldn't be looking at the motor or the tail shaft, it is something around the brake area.
OK. I'll try Jeff Owen's suggestion of holding the car on body jacks at the back instead of axle stands. I don't think it's the back because the vibration always feels massively worse placing hand on underside of motor - but I'm way past ignoring ANY suggestion.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:39

Jeff Owen wrote:As I understand, you are currently carrying out tests with the car supported with the back axle on blocks. How about supporting the car under the body so that the back axle is free to move and see if the axle vibrates.
Tahnks Jeff. That's pretty easy to arrange so I'll try it.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:41

acmotor wrote: Another though is.... did that spline coupling have a coil spring internally to keep a pre-load on bearings either end of shaft ?
No, it slides freely but very slowly and requires a lot of pressure. It's quite tight but free to move - like a new spline!
Last edited by Johny on Wed, 22 May 2013, 08:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bladecar » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:49

Johny,

I haven't read every post carefully Image but I have to assume you have used a "stethoscope" extensively.

You have used a long screwdriver and put your ear to the end of it while putting the blade on various parts of the non-moving vehicle to hear for louder and quieter intensity?

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:52

bladecar wrote: Johny, I haven't read every post carefully Image but I have to assume you have used a "stethoscope" extensively.
No I haven't. That's hard to do under the car and the vibration is so bad at the motor end that just your hand picks it up readily. At the diff. end there's none at all (by feel).

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Post by bladecar » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:56

Johny,

You should! The sound you can pick up is like the noises you hear during a WW2 Sub movie :)

Use a screwdriver and "explore the metal" but make sure it won't move.

If the sound is intense, start from where it isn't, if you can.

There are stethoscopes of the usual type for this work (we just used an appropriately-sized screwdriver (even a hammer, anything), short or long as the case may be.   Maybe a piece of hose, you need contact with the metal, great vibration reporting.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:56

Some new information. Unfortunately not complete but new anyway.
This morning over breakfast I was think that the vibration didn't seem as bad as usual at 90 km/h last night. So I ducked out to the garage and ran the car up to 90 km/h. I had removed the speed limit last night so I overshot to 110 km/h and it felt destructive.
Once I shut it down and peered under the car - here's what I saw.
Image

The incomplete parts is that I was halfway to work before I realised that I should of hand rotated the shaft to see if it went all the way round.
I now also realise that 60km/h is not fast enough to do these checks. I should do the video again at 90 km/h.

Edit: This turned out to be a red herring. I was sitting in the car and this lowered it on the suspension. That explains the perfect line as well.
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 22 May 2013, 15:58

Why is the spline tight ?
Is it tight from grease or a rubber boot ? or an assembly issue ?
Remember to consider the option of sliding it apart and checking it then (after marking) re-assemble at different angles. It may have been apart at some stage and not put back at the same angle.
What is the history of the spline ?
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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 16:03

bladecar wrote: Johny,
You should! The sound you can pick up is like the noises you hear during a WW2 Sub movie :)
Use a screwdriver and "explore the metal" but make sure it won't move.
If the sound is intense, start from where it isn't, if you can.
I wish you guys could sit in this car at 100 km/h (axle stands) and feel the mess. Using a stethescope would be like listening to a sun explode. I get your point though - just how to implement something meaningful.

In the next video (tonight hopefully) I'm going to run it at 100 km/h and try to get steady (camera mounted) shots of the motor coupling and the drive shaft in the centre and at the diff end.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 16:10

acmotor wrote: Why is the spline tight ?
It's user programmable - how tight you do up the sleeve that probably compresses a rubber seal - I haven't pulled it apart to look.
Is it tight from grease or a rubber boot ? or an assembly issue ?
No it can be easily moved - perhaps I misrepresented it.
What is the history of the spline ?
Brand new and in excellent condition. I have to slide it in and out to do up the difficult-to-put-on M10 hex cap screws so it's not that hard. I did up the end on it to a tightness that I considered OK. I can still slide it in and out with thumb and forefinger - just.
Last edited by Johny on Wed, 22 May 2013, 06:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bladecar » Wed, 22 May 2013, 16:26

Johny,
I don't want to annoy you but I decided, instead of shaving, to explain what I think the process is.

Run your car at low-speed low-vibration level.

Put a screwdriver somewhere on the body, cross-member, diff-housing, floor, whatever. There'll be a vibration travelling up the "screwdrive" to your head bones.   The aim is to move back and forth and around to cause the vibration volume to increase/decrease until you work out the pattern which moves you closer to the cause (more intense vibration/volume).

When the vibration volume increases, you are moving in the general direction of the cause, and vice-verse.   You need to avoid contacting moving parts and electical parts that may cause you grief.

You don't have to be doing any particular speed to do this work. The lowest speed that gives you even a small vibration (best, I think).

If the vibration is coming from a moving part, you will be able to determine its general area.
Last edited by bladecar on Wed, 22 May 2013, 06:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 16:31

Oh-oh. I wonder if the new chinagraph line appeared because I sat in the car? Last night I did it from outside with a hand on the accelerator. I sat in the car this morning because I wnated better control as the speed wasn't pegged....
Drat - I compressed the front suspension I bet.

I'm of the opinion again that it isn't tailshaft deflection.

Does a universal jount tailshaft - perfectly balanced, phased and aligned, cause rotational vibration in the ends? Eg. Vibration that rotates around the central drive point? The tailshaft is accelerating and de-accelerating during rotation. Is none of this transmitted to the drive point on the other side of the drive UJ?

Harking back to acmotor being concerned about rotor end-float. Does a UJ tailshaft place forward-back pressure on the drive system - again on the drive side of the UJ?

Someone at work asked if the frequency of vibration changed as the speed increased. Another good question. I can't be sure but I have assumed it does. Picking the diference bewteen 40HZ (60km/h) and 68Hz (100km/h) was never my strength.
Another measurement to make - to be sure.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 16:37

bladecar wrote: Johny,
I don't want to annoy you but I decided, instead of shaving,
You should have shaved - you look terrible now Image.
to explain what I think the process is.
If you are annoying me by thinking about my problem and giving helpful advice then I'm a twit.
Run your car at low-speed low-vibration level.

Put a screwdriver somewhere on the body, cross-member, diff-housing, floor, whatever. There'll be a vibration travelling up the "screwdrive" to your head bones...
...
...
If the vibration is coming from a moving part, you will be able to determine its general area.
I can see I have some cold, crawling around garage floor work to do tonight. Yes I can remember back in the Hillman days chasing "tick-tick" noises this way. Understood.
Last edited by Johny on Wed, 22 May 2013, 12:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 22 May 2013, 16:45

A screw driver is not a bad method for detecting engine knocks, but for under the car you would be better off going to Super Cheap and buying yourself a cheap stethoscope (a screw driver you pay for) I used to have one in my tool box the tip unscrews for storage and easier to use under the car.

BTW you have some noise in the front diff pinion bearing, but its not the source of the wobble.

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 22 May 2013, 16:48


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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 17:00

EV2Go wrote:BTW you have some noise in the front diff pinion bearing, but its not the source of the wobble.
Yes, the diff. needs attention and will get it when this issue is sorted out. I don't notice the backlash above about 20 km/h but it's really annoying at take-off when the car has regen braked to a stop and loaded it up the other way. The whole back-end could do with some TLC which will happen - but not just yet.
The stethescope at $30 isn't too bad.

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 22 May 2013, 17:06

$30 is ok but I think I paid like $5 for mine (very long time ago). You might get them in other shops cheaper... All they are is a thin stainless rod that screws into a flimsy round metal disk. The sound travels up the stem and vibrates the disk to amplify subtle noises. Same as the screw driver but with a lot more precision.

You might find with testing all over the housing where the noise is coming from. The probe is fairly long so you could get it near rotating parts without too much risk to yourself.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 18:00

If the front and rear Universal Joints were different sizes would this create a problem?

Edit: Joints
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