CZal's Mazda Roadster (MX-5)

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
CZal
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CZal's Mazda Roadster (MX-5)

Post by CZal » Mon, 03 May 2010, 22:48

Hi all,

Long time reader and finally dipping my feet into the water.

Table of Contents:

- Initial Description
- AC motor description
- Donor car is found and ICE stripped out
- Quest for Engineer

I've been considering a conversion for a long time and finally settled with a 22Kw AC motor going into a Mazda Roadster (Similar to Weber and Coulumb's, but rougher!)

Haven't settled on the controller or batteries yet but mainly considering 60kw (or above) controller with LiPo4 power.


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Post by Johny » Mon, 03 May 2010, 22:57

Hi Costa and welcome. Nice to see another industrial AC on the way in Victoria - I won't feel so alone now.
Did you see that ABB VFD in Sweden for sale?

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CZal's Mazda Roadster (MX-5)

Post by CZal » Mon, 03 May 2010, 23:13

Thanks Johny,

I haven't seen the VFD for sale but always trying to keep an eye out... Just gone through ebay now and didn't see it again, (got a link?)

My main prob at the moment is trying to find an engineer to work with. I've got a design for the motor mount/transmission adapter and I'm looking for someone to manufacture it (out of 4mm steel) and fit to the transmission bell housing.

I'll keep adding info today but I'm keen to sort out this engineering piece earlier rather later (I'll have to move the car soon and I'm hoping it can save a trip if it can go straight to the fitter's)

Does anyone know of an engineer friendly to the EV cause based in Melbourne? (preferably south east :0)

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CZal's Mazda Roadster (MX-5)

Post by CZal » Mon, 03 May 2010, 23:15

I'll work out the formatting (especially relating to the Table Of Contents) but I figure I'll get the three main areas type up first before work gets in the way again!

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CZal's Mazda Roadster (MX-5)

Post by CZal » Tue, 04 May 2010, 00:02


AC Motor Description:

I found the motor on ebay in January and after parting with $330 + delivery I was the proud owner of an ASEA 22Kw motor.




It's a foot mounted 3 Phase Induction motor and as you can see from the photo its:

Form Factor: MBT180L
Speed:       1470rpm
Weight:      145Kg!!

Bearing seems fine and looks pretty unused (I must admit, I haven't powered it up yet but the vendor promised me that he had!!)

Dimensions are:
L:681mm x HD390mm x A279mm (with the shaft out a further 110mm!)

The idea behind the motor selection was that it might be powerful enough so that I might be able to remove the gearbox in the future (or next build :0)

ImageImageImage

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CZal's Mazda Roadster (MX-5)

Post by CZal » Tue, 04 May 2010, 00:28

The Donor:

the donor car is a grey import Mazda Roadster (Had been registered in Victoria before but out of reg when I got it). Obviously the same as an MX-5 but with a few bells and whistles.

The two main features for to worry about (besides the general lack of space :0) are:

- Power steering
In the end I decided to swap out the power steering for a manual steering box (noticing that Weber and Coulomb did the opposite, now you got me worried lads, was the steering too heavy?)

-Airconditioning
Decided to keep this in for the time being... Haven't decided how to drive it yet (whether through the drive motor or a second smaller motor), but I'm liking the idea of reversing the cycle for heat... Will need more investigation...


Have already removed the ICE and am looking to clean it up for the fitting of the AC motor in the next step

ImageImageImageImage
The interior came with covers for a reason! Image

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Post by CZal » Tue, 04 May 2010, 00:43

I've had a guy at work mock up the attached CAD drawing of the motor mount I'm hoping to use. It uses an L-shaped design so that the motor continues to be foot mounted with the front of the L bolting up to the Transmission bell housing.

For me this is the hardest part... I'm not going to profess to be any type of mechanic or proper engineer of any description (IT systems are more my game) and as such this could make or break the conversion!

I'm hoping to keep the clutch but this is not a pre-requisite

Does anyone know of an engineer (fabricator/fitter) willing to work on a one-off EV in Melbourne???

(I can't actually get the images or cad diagram up here at the moment as they're all too large, will try to modify and hope to post again tomorrow)

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Post by a4x4kiwi » Tue, 04 May 2010, 00:49

If it is RWD (i think it is) You should not need the gearbox. That motor is bigger than my utes and my ute weighs 1550kg.
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Post by CZal » Tue, 04 May 2010, 00:58

LOL I think you're right 4x4 but I'm hoping to include very brisk acceleration as a part of this project so the gearbox will stay in for the time being...

Also allows me to really have a look at quite a few final drive ratios with just the flick of a gear change lever!

I've followed the two speed gearbox thread before (My reasons for 2-speeds are to help with acceleration and save batteries) and am keen to try out a 4wheel drive overdrive unit... Just need to get a working prototype going before I explore the options :0)

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Post by CZal » Tue, 04 May 2010, 01:01

Just out of curiousity, what's the acceleration like on the ute? Skipping out the gearbox really does save me a lot of bother (although this discussion is normally a slippery slope for me)

I notice that Weber and Coulumb kept the gearbox...

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Post by a4x4kiwi » Tue, 04 May 2010, 01:08

If woody is watching this thread, he might calculate your expected performance. :) if you ask nicely.

1500RPM for me is 30km/hr using a 5.125 diff and normal big ute wheels. Performance up to about 50 is great before torque starts dropping off. With your smaller wheels, and a 3-4:1 diff, you should be great up to about 70, and I expect you would get to 100 no probs.

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Post by a4x4kiwi » Tue, 04 May 2010, 01:09

... your biggest challenge will be where to put 600v worth of batteries.
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Post by woody » Tue, 04 May 2010, 01:13

Accelleration is not a problem. With a 22kW motor you should have 500Nm of torque (if you have the current to support it).

The problem you will hit is that after the peak power @ ~1500rpm you'll start losing torque fast:
1500rpm : 500Nm
3000rpm : 125Nm
4500rpm : 55Nm

A gearbox will help a tiny bit with this (overdrive).

Weber + Coulomb have a 2 pole motor (3000 rpm) which is lower voltage (240V) which means a standard controller (415V) can run it up to ~5000rpm with full torque for a much higher peak power.

cheers,
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Post by Johny » Tue, 04 May 2010, 15:10

The VFD wasn't on eBay - sorry.
It's being sold by a guy in Europe who was going to do an EV but is moving to NZ. See about the 7th post in this thread.
The problem would be getting it to Australia.

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Post by weber » Tue, 04 May 2010, 17:20

Hi, CZal, welcome to the forums, and great to see another MX-5 being converted! We're happy to provide any advice you may want.
CZal wrote:
AC Motor Description:

I found the motor on ebay in January and after parting with $330 + delivery I was the proud owner of an ASEA 22Kw motor.

It's a foot mounted 3 Phase Induction motor and as you can see from the photo its:

Form Factor: MBT180L
Speed:       1470rpm
Weight:      145Kg!!

There is a problem, at least if you want to keep the gearbox. Anything larger than a 132 frame won't allow the gearbox to fit into the tunnel. We've been there. I suppose you could attempt to cut into the subframe, but that sounds bad.


Coulomb posting: I think you need to find a 132 frame motor; possibly a fair bit lower nominal power than 22 kW. Go with a Tritium controller and 420 V nominal of lithium, perhaps 90 Ah if you can afford it and fit it. Otherwise 60 Ah I suppose, but then you'll be pushing battery current limits. Rewind the motor for ~ 100 nominal. We've had a lot of problems fitting 228 cells into our MX-5.

The fact that you may be allowed to mount them on their sides does offer many more possibilities however.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Post by CZal » Wed, 05 May 2010, 00:50

Oops, duplicate post....
Last edited by CZal on Mon, 10 May 2010, 06:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by CZal » Wed, 05 May 2010, 00:54

Oops duplicate post..
Last edited by CZal on Mon, 10 May 2010, 06:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by CZal » Wed, 05 May 2010, 00:55

CZal wrote: Thanks all,

It's nice to feel welcomed on a project that most people at work think I'm mad to begin Image

I had a quick look at the controller Mal, and it looks quite nice but I don't see a DC input bus for it... Is the aim here to have a separate inverter? I'm hoping to have an all in one controller inc. re-gen...

Thanks for the run down on how torque loss over rpm Woody, just don't get the last bit about the gearbox only helping a little (with overdrive). Surely with 5 gears available I can keep it 'super torque' mode for most anything it comes again (ignore this if you were talking about the O/D unit... but with that I would figure on changing the overdrive gear to a higher ratio, so you get two proper gears...)

I'm a bit more concerned about the motor not fitting though!And coming from Weber who has a chunk of experience here I'm most concerned... One of the reasons of going to the manual steering box (aside from not always needing to drive it) was so that there'd be a clean run from the gearbox to the front of the vehicle without having the hydraulic lines in the way...

I'm pretty keen to use the motor I have.. Here's a pic of the engine bay (before the power steering came out, and excuse the quality, blackberry camera is pretty rubbish)
Image
The motor seems to clear everything to the side... And it's not long enough to interfere with the aircon radiator... Im hoping to sit it up in it's L-Shape mount so that it clears the front axle...

What did you guys see that I've missed?

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Post by CZal » Wed, 05 May 2010, 01:00

Um... Apologies about the triple post... I was just trying to fix up the typos!! Right I need to get out of work and pick this up at home...

PS. Yes the batteries are going to be a challenge... big time....

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Post by a4x4kiwi » Wed, 05 May 2010, 01:38

On FVDs / VSD / inverters, the 3 phase AC input is rectified to create DC. You can connect to this internal DC bus if necessary.
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Post by antiscab » Wed, 05 May 2010, 02:38

use "post Options" --> "Edit Post" to edit any of your posts.

if the option isn't there, let me know

cheers,
Matt
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 05 May 2010, 02:47

CZal wrote: It's nice to feel welcomed on a project that most people at work think I'm mad to begin
Of course, our support doesn't mean you're not mad...    Image
It's like that saying "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not talking about me!"
I'm pretty keen to use the motor I have..
Ok, but how do you feel about a rewind? Unfortunately, at some $800, it will be almost 3x the price of your motor. But we can get to that later.
Here's a pic of the engine bay (before the power steering came out
Somehow it looks more roomy than ours. I assume that this must be an illusion. The all-important front cross member is unfortunately not in view.
The motor seems to clear everything to the side...
Well, yes, but remember you'll be cramming air conditioning compressors, batteries, and all sorts of gear in there.
And it's not long enough to interfere with the aircon radiator...
That's pretty impressive, considering it's a 180L, which I assume means extra long. Remember that you'll have some sort of coupling between the motor and the gearbox, and an adapter plate.
Im hoping to sit it up in it's L-Shape mount so that it clears the front axle...
Are you saying you're not going to foot mount it? A 145 kg motor will need a solid mount.
What did you guys see that I've missed?
Well, mainly that we've had two different 132 frame motors in there, and it doesn't seem like anything bigger would fit:

Image

I guess a 180 frame is only 48 mm higher from bottom to mid shaft, but it doesn't seem like there is 48 mm clearance where indicated.

If you see that clearance in your MX-5, then that's great.

The other thing is that this and the current motor are standing somewhat on pipes and other dross from the power steering, which you won't have now. So maybe that plus the small gap we see in the above photo will be enough.

[Edit: flubbed the post completely due to a access denied error and pressing the wrong button.]
Last edited by coulomb on Tue, 04 May 2010, 16:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CZal » Wed, 05 May 2010, 03:53

This photo might give a better view of the space I've got to work with:
Image
(Please excuse the dodgy MS Paint drawing, the mount is properly CADed up with stress calculations)

The aim of the L-shaped motor mount is that the upright of the L bolts into the bell housing and secured to the front of the motor where the bearing bolts are and the bottom of the L is built to fit into the cross member, mainly being held where the original motor mounts were, lower than the original motor but high enough so that the output shaft lines up with the input shaft of the gearbox and by some synchronous miracle it also clears the axle... It might have some support as indicated by the larger square on the flat of the cross member (but apparently I don't need it)... The end of the motor itself goes beyond the mount and just clears/sits above the front torsion bar..

The motor is actually a fair amount wider than the original ICE at the feet hence the pwr steering going...

Now the total length of the motor is 680mm but 110mm of that is the output shaft which I'm hoping to do something clever with (ok just ream it out) so that the gearbox input shaft fits inside of it. I see the 132 is quite an amount shorter at 447 with an 80mm shaft, but you're not talking length you're talking height correct?

hmmmm... I think I'll be doing some serious re-measuring tomorrow...

Also my aim is to get this going, probably a slightly different view to yours Coulumb in that it's not really for retail sale, (though as I learn that might change, especially if you need a dealer in Vic Image)

The person I'm working with here is interested in inertia cells as a storage medium (he has some runnning in his milling factory and this car might be a way to prove/diprove some theories... My view is that EVs are the way that single driver cars should commute to work AND they can be fast and fun... so I'm happy to pack in the battery cells wherever they'll fit!! in the boot, the engine bay, even under the passenger seat! (OK maybe not the passenger seat but about anywhere else!!)

PS thanks Matt, I'll be using the edit post button in the future!
Last edited by CZal on Tue, 04 May 2010, 17:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by coulomb » Wed, 05 May 2010, 06:55

CZal wrote: PS thanks Matt, I'll be using the edit post button in the future!

You can use it now, to reduce the duplicate posts to a short "oops duplicate" message (you can't delete them entirely). You can edit any of your own posts at any time. Well, except that 1% of the time when the software decides it won't let you.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 05 May 2010, 15:06

CZal wrote:Now the total length of the motor is 680mm but 110mm of that is the output shaft which I'm hoping to do something clever with (ok just ream it out) so that the gearbox input shaft fits inside of it.
Are you planning on cutting an internal spline in the motor shaft to match the gearbox spline?

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