Hemonster's ACIM conversion

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Post by coulomb » Tue, 18 Aug 2009, 15:14

I've been sloppy with my terminology above, sorry. Where I said "leakage" I really should have said "insulation failure". We'd have to disable the insulation monitor (I incorrectly called it a leakage detector) during charging, but its function would be replaced by a type B RCD (Residual Current Device) which will detect a difference between active and neutral currents while charging. These will be the same if there is no insulation failure.

Note that it must be a type B (AC/DC) device, so it can detect DC current differences, as well as AC current differences. Obviously, an insulation failure at the pack will show up mostly as a DC current difference. This, combined with earthing the chassis during charging, should make the charger quite safe, so hopefully we'll have no problem getting it approved.

The main problem might be getting something that is partly home made, but plugged into the mains, approved. Though you can make your own audio amplifier and plug that into the mains... they may see this as different, however.

BTW, leakage is where a current, potentially lethal, is already flowing; that's too late. It could be flowing through a human. Insulation monitoring does not involve currents flowing, except for the non-lethal current of the monitor itself.
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Post by Richo » Tue, 18 Aug 2009, 23:34

Tritium_James wrote: Here's what ACP do:
Image
Note that the pack will move around relative to the mains (at 100Hz), which is why you need a floating pack. The floating motor I'm not so sure is necessary, but all their documentation is pretty adamant about that point.


Except thier motor is in Star most of us would be in Delta.
Some of the extra boost may circulate back through the other two windings in delta.

Still an interesting concept.
Might be cheaper but I doubt that it would be as efficient as a dedicated SMPS that has the isolation built.
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 00:22

Richo wrote: Except their motor is in Star most of us would be in Delta.
Some of the extra boost may circulate back through the other two windings in delta.
It's an inductor. With star, they are in series; with delta, they are in parallel (2 in series in parallel with the other 1). The inductance may be a bit less in delta, but I'm sure it's enough for charging; it's enough for driving and that's PWM also!    Image
Might be cheaper but I doubt that it would be as efficient as a dedicated SMPS that has the isolation built.
At low power, yes, the AC propulsion system is only 80% efficient at 1.2 kW, but over 90% at 2 kW, and about 95% from 3-16 (!) kW.

See http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/AC150_Gen2_specs.pdf (last page of 3)

That's not too shabby, really.
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Post by Tritium_James » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 00:30

Richo wrote:Might be cheaper but I doubt that it would be as efficient as a dedicated SMPS that has the isolation built.


It's a LOT cheaper than a separate 16kW charger! You've paid for the silicon already, why not use it?

It's also not isolated. Note that alternately the Battery+ and then Battery- get connected to AC Active via S5 or S6 as the voltage on the AC swings positive and negative. ie, the pack swings relative to earth in a squarewave at 100Hz and the pack voltage in amplitude. Pretty much worst-case from an EMI and probably safety perspective.

I think using the motor controller silicon to do the charging makes sense, just not using the motor as the boost inductor. Too many compromises with what you have to do with everything else regarding voltage swings etc.


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Post by Richo » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 02:20

Richo wrote: Except their motor is in Star most of us would be in Delta.
Some of the extra boost may circulate back through the other two windings in delta.
coulomb wrote: It's an inductor. With star, they are in series; with delta, they are in parallel (2 in series in parallel with the other 1). The inductance may be a bit less in delta, but I'm sure it's enough for charging; it's enough for driving and that's PWM also!    Image


Ah I see the problem now.
It depends where you insert the mains.
If you put the mains within the delta triangle then there is a problem.
If the mains is inserted between then the motor terminal and the controller terminal then it's ok.
Image
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 03:51

me wrote: So my brake chopper idea is starting to sound better. I'll whip up a circuit soon so you can appreciate the genius of it     Image .

I've started a new thread with my circuit here. Alas, it's not quite as genius as I first thought.
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 20:18

coulomb wrote: No need for that, just use capacitor start.

In fact, no need for capacitor start, either. You can just spin the motor up using the controller's three phase output as usual, then glide the frequency around slowly till the mains is synchronised with the motor. At that point, throw the contactor which inserts the mains across a single phase. Hmmm, you may need a "run" capacitor, but these are smaller and cheaper than "start" capacitors (which have to be switched out once the motor is running, if I recall correctly.)

This reminds me of pracs up in the electrical engineering machine laboratory, where we'd have a light bulb across the difference between a motor's terminals and the mains. The bulb would light and darken rapidly until the frequency got close, then you nudged it closer and closer till the light was completely out, then throw the knife switch to put the motor directly on the mains.

Of course, we didn't use VFDs in those days, it was all resistor start (or something; surely resistor start wouldn't be fine-grained enough). Maybe it was a wirewound pot in series with the field of the driving motor (driving the other one that you wanted to synch with the mains).
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Post by Richo » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 21:21

I don't know which is worse:
1. Two motors spinning all night to charge the pack.
2. A non-isolated 3-phase controller charging the pack.
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 21:39

It's only ever 1 motor.

What's wrong with there being hazardous voltages inside a grounded metal chassis with RCD on the mains? There are lots of metal boxes (and even more plastic ones) in every home with harzardous voltages inside.
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Post by Richo » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 23:12

I thought a 2.4kW motor connected to mains is spinning the traction motor which is in regen through the controller?
2 motors.
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Post by Sparky Brother » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 23:20

I am not sure if I am missing something but I am getting confused. Are we all talking about practically using the one and only Traction motor of the car because these guis http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html explain very well what is a rotary phase converter and it would be ones choice to make it nice and simple using this idler motor as a pretty rough 3 phase converter by creating the "Third Leg" or run a single phase motor spinning the 3 Ph. one in order to create nice and smooth sine wave.

With my very rudimentary understanding of the VFDs I think the fact that all three phases will not be 120 degrees out of each other would not be a big problem for the VFD to rectify and feed the Battery pack.
Saying that you must keep in mind that by the time I started thinking about a conversion (not so long ago when the pice of the petrol was set to hit anything around $5 a liter! God forbid!) I was scared to death I will loose my friedom of moving so bugger all losses and inefficiencies! In any case diving such car vill be still cheaper and greener!

And hmm! Some one claims rights over 3 Phase conversion?! Jesus I am glad we can still use the invention of the hot water for free Image

As for the motor humming all night in the garage> Yes I would agree it`s not the best thing to have but I seriously doubt that a whole bunch of chargers will not start doing the same over a period of time.

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Post by Richo » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 23:36

Ok 1 motor Image

Don't worry the price of petrol will go up again. Image
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 23:51

We're kicking around a number of ideas.

1) Using the traction motor as a rotary converter so the controller sees 3-phase, and can readily regen the mains energy into the pack. Only one motor. The motor spins, but does not do any mechanical work. It's like a single phase to 3-phase transformer.

2) Inserting the mains in series with one leg of the motor. So the motor is used as an inductor. Only one motor. The motor presumably hums, but does not spin. You need good control over the PWM to get this to work.

3) Using a second motor to spin up the main motor. Two motors required, low efficiency (two electrical <-> mechanical conversions), noise from two motors, but simple. Might be able to couple the second motor from a power belt. Isolated. Sorry Richo, I didn't think of this one. You could probably avoid needing a VFD for the second motor, by using the main motor to spin up the second motor with a little energy from the pack, adjusting the phase slowly, and connecting the mains to the second motor when synchronised. Then the energy can reverse by regenning into the pack.

4) Using the brake chopper IGBT of an industrial controller, if it exists. Motor not used. Need expensive diode, and a heavy inductor, but the inductor likely came with the controller (and you have 2 spares on the shelf).

Of these, only 3) is isolated, for those that seem hung up on that point. Only 3 involves conversion from electrical to mechanical power or vice versa (it needs both). Only 1) and 3) require the traction motor to spin.
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Post by Sparky Brother » Thu, 20 Aug 2009, 00:21

Nah! I was probably misunderstood. When they say "Idler motor " they actually mean the motor is spinning with no load attached to it. I barely belive you can create the "Third leg" by not having the rotor spining. There will be no magnetic field cutting the conductors of the third phase hence no voltage induced into this coil.

Coulomb your idea of bringing the motor up to speed by the Inverter and then swithching to 1 Ph. is actually brilliant because to make the 3 Ph. motor running you need some means af making it spin beforehand! It could be a rope starter or Cap. Start, Cap. Run cirquit but nothing will do that easier and better than the Car`s very own bunch of Silicon . The VFD I mean Image

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Post by coulomb » Thu, 20 Aug 2009, 00:34

Sparky Brother wrote: I barely belive you can create the "Third leg" by not having the rotor spinning.

That's right, it has to spin to create the other phase. But option 2) doesn't need three wire and hence the other 2 phases - you can just use one phase to regen into the pack.
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Post by Sparky Brother » Thu, 20 Aug 2009, 00:48

Ah yes. However I am not sure my Telemecanique Inverter will accept single phase. On the manual they do say it would but what hassles me about is the model number of my inverter is slightly different than those listed in the manual so I should probably check it out experimentally. Scarry!!!

The thing I dont really grasp for now is would the current supplied i.e. 1ph. motor(generator in this case) to inverter to batteries be enough and not least, by supplying 1 phase 230V I have the feeling the DC bus will have not sufficient voltage to make the charging happen Image therefore 3 phase supply could be a must.

Edit:
Forget about the controller issue. I sort of didn`t get point 2) when I threw that in
Last edited by Sparky Brother on Wed, 19 Aug 2009, 14:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by coulomb » Thu, 20 Aug 2009, 02:14

Sparky Brother wrote: Ah yes. However I am not sure my Telemecanique Inverter will accept single phase.
Um, you won't see battery charging as an application in the controller manual. They are designed to take 415 three-phase input and produce zero to almost as much as the input to the motor. Period. We're talking about using the controller as a boost converter anyway, so the fact that 230 V rectified has a peak of only about 325 V doesn't matter; it will be boosted up (in voltage, and down in current) to the approximately 700 V of the charging pack. Also, the mains is being connected to the output, not the input. The half-bridges at the output are capable of bidirectional power transfer.
The thing I don't really grasp for now is would the current supplied i.e. 1ph. motor (generator in this case) to inverter to batteries be enough
? One HP? That's less than 0.75 kW. I don't know where that number comes from (perhaps a 1HP motor in option 3). That could charge the pack, but rather slowly. For example, 200 40 Ah cells is about 27 kWh (at 3.4 VPC), so that would take 27/0.75 * 0.8 ~= 29 hours to charge from 20% SOC. IMO, a charger has to be capable of charging the pack from 20% SOC to 100% SOC in 10 hours, or it's not practical.
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Post by woody » Thu, 20 Aug 2009, 04:21

Sparky: what's your VFD model number?

Coulomb: 1ph. motor = 1 phase motor, not 1HP motor, I reckon.
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 20 Aug 2009, 15:18

woody wrote: Coulomb: 1ph. motor = 1 phase motor, not 1HP motor, I reckon.


Oops!    Image   Pardon my dyslexia. I assume you'd use about a 2.5 kW single phase motor, to max out a 10A outlet (bit more than max it out). Then the 27 kWh pack would recharge from 20% SOC in under 9 hours, which is a lot better. Obviously a 15A outlet and a slightly larger motor would be better. I'm ignoring motor efficiencies here; remember that the combined efficiency will be around the low 80% range. So 3 kW charge is all you could expect from a 15A (3.6 kW) power outlet.
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Post by acmotor » Thu, 20 Aug 2009, 18:14

coulomb wrote:
What's wrong with there being hazardous voltages inside a grounded metal chassis with RCD on the mains? There are lots of metal boxes (and even more plastic ones) in every home with harzardous voltages inside.


Agreed, in principle.

I originally charged by a 240V to 500V (isolated transformer) ~1kVA feeding the VFD 3 ph (not HP !) inputs. Voltage was just suitable to charge SLAs to 15Vpc when 50 in pack (750VDC). Current limit was by transformer impedance. Not cleaver but worked. Brake resistor shunt regulated when pack voltage of 750VDC was reached (Only zener BMS fitted). Rather wasteful. VFD was just diode bridge input (not SCR as on units >~45kW) so accepted single phase input.
(I now use 12 individual 48V chargers all floating)

Going upmarket with a DOL boost converter would be better if going for full pack charge. The concern may be the live at mains wiring in EV when playing around with it while on charge. You would be inclined to use an isolating transformer as when servicing the old colour TVs with live chassis.
But 50Hz 2kVA transformers are big and heavy. Better to use SMPS with small high frequency transformer in the first place ? Solves all the isolation/regulation/pf problems.

I do have concerns about how potentially dangerous a recharging process should be and how much of the EVs HAZV systems need to be powered up to perform charging. DOL being one hard to make safe arrangement.
e.g. consider some of the charging possibilities in operation overnight in your garage or the local shopping centre car park.

A battery pack with absolute minimal wiring extending around the vehicle during charge would be desireable ?

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Post by Sparky Brother » Fri, 21 Aug 2009, 00:28

Hi Woody

The VFD is Telemecanique Model ATV 58HD54N4. There are two labels on it. First one says "high Torque motor rating" - 37 kW. Output 79A, 108A-1min.

The other one is obviously added by Schneider Electric and states "Saturated Motor Rating" -45kW Output 85A, 108A 1 min.
I assume the first one is for motors with double Squirrel caged rotors

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Post by acmotor » Fri, 21 Aug 2009, 04:53

Would these be similar conditions to Danfoss rating system ?

'Normal and High overload torque mode.'

For example....
A Danfoss VLT5052 is 37kW (73A) (116.8A 60 sec) in high overload torque and 45kW (90A) (99A 60sec) in normal overload torque mode. (in the 380-440V range).
kW are in expected shaft outputs from motor.

The Amps are for motor kVA i.e. allowing for the power factor of the motor (pf = 0.85 typically on a 37kW)
so 380V x 73A x .85pf x 1.73(root 3) x 92% typical 37kW motor efficiency = 37.5kW or therabouts
(calcs are usually done at 380V even though the VFD range may be 380 to 500V or so. i.e. at the worst case current condition for marketing purposes)

These 'modes' refer to the selection of motor size to go with the VFD.
i.e. the Danfoss VFD can operate a 45kW motor at up to 110% torque
or a 37kW motor at up to 160% torque. (called "high Torque motor rating" in Telemechanics land)

The motor types are the same standard squirrel cage induction motors in each case as all industrial 3PIMs can do at least 160% (some up to 400%) of nominal torque before pullout. (In fact the motor type is not important as long as it is a typical induction motor, or possibly a PMSM as some VFDs will operate as well). The current is what matters most.

What really matters with a VFD is the output current continuous and peak. These would be 85A and 108A for the Telemecanique Model ATV 58HD54N4. (or 90 and 116.8A for the Danfoss) (there is nothing to be read into the difference really, it depends on the actual voltage to fit in with nominal motor kW ratings)


In an EV application it is desirable IMHO to have the VFD at least 3 x the motor kW (or current) rating for peak operation.
If the motor is wound or wired for a lower voltage than the VFD nominal then the VFD needs to be even bigger to realise the full motor potential.
e.g. if motor is 208V (1/2V) then (415VAC)VFD needs to be at least 6 x the motor kW (current).

So this Telemecanique VFD would suit a 15kW 3PIM. Any bigger and the the motor will be big and heavy and the peak not able to be reached.

But then again, you can still run great big 45kW motor continuously !

Effectively this Telemecanique is capable of 108A at (say)415V for 60 seconds = 415 x 108 x .85 x 1.73 x .92 = 60kW or thereabouts shaft output on a standard 37kW motor. (depending on voltage).

I'd call it a 60kW peak 45kW cont. VFD. (forget the other ratings, they are for marketing)

Quite a tidy unit !

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Post by woody » Fri, 21 Aug 2009, 06:02

Catalogue and Manual say 120% and 170% for telemecanique :-)

Apart from that acmotor is 100%.
EV use is "high overload" / "constant torque" type of usage.

I can't remember what motor you've got, but it was going into a Feroza?

It's a great size unit anyway: should be good for 350Nm on a big enough 4 pole 400V motor, 1/2 that on a 2 pole 400V, or 220Nm on a 230/240V 4 pole.

My understanding of the model number

ATV = Altivar
58H = Model
D = Deci = multiplier of 10 (U = 1, C = 100)
54 = unit size, roughly continous horsepower, 5.4 times multipler = 54.
N4 = ~400V (M2 =~ 200V)

So yours is 400V 3 phase - nothing in the manual about feeding them with single phase -- not saying it can't be done though :-)
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Post by acmotor » Fri, 21 Aug 2009, 06:36

Well, they are all just numbers. Image

Hey, I did say thereabouts ! Most of the numbers are for marketing.
Danfoss for instance is at 380-440V , Tele is at 400-460V.

It is that peak Amp number that you are interested in for an EV.


Telemechanic Catalogue p20.........

Transient output current:
Constant torque: 160% of nominal NEC rated motor current for
60 seconds.
Variable torque: 110% of nominal motor current for 60 seconds.

(seems to be a bit of a VFD standard)

Transient motor torque (Constant torque ratings):
200% of nominal motor torque (typical value at ±10%) for
2 seconds
(Known as starting torque, most VFDs (Danfoss ditto ~ 200%))
(Tele is a good 2 seconds... nice, Danfoss is 0.5 sec)

170% of nominal motor torque (typical value at ±10%) for
60 seconds

Ah, that does it +-10% !     Thereabouts !   Image
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Post by Sparky Brother » Fri, 21 Aug 2009, 18:52

Heh! I am just coming out on a lunch break at school and was nicely surprised to see the calcs I was doing while the teacher was passing on some boring stuff are exactly the same as yours guys! Thanks anyway! It`s always better to stay on the safe side by double checking it. And yes, the motor is 15 kW indeed I just still wander if it is any possible to make this 2 pole run as 4 pole at pull up so I wan`t have to run it through the gear box or I am just doomed to either rewind it to 4 poles or keep the GB. I personally like the two pole configuration for the advantage that it gives you in the range of 1400RPM to approx. 4000 RPM because this is actually the speed you need the better torque the most - overtaking is a dangerous business at speeds of 60-90 kmh. if you don`t have enough torque.

I might have to find out a trustworthy rewinder to work this issue out ASAP. Someone in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne? Anyone?

P.M.
Yeah those 200% for two sec are nice indeed! They might come in handy

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