Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by antiscab »

That's some pretty thin wire, no wonder the voltage drops.

The solution is to go to a 4 wire setup.
I would trace out on the circuit board where the voltage measurement is, and connect that to the tabs separately.

The other alternative is to lower the low volt limit by 0.3 to 0.4v, assuming the current is held at 20A constant
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

Awesome thanks will give that a go 👍
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by francisco.shi »

Those alligator clips probably can't do 20A. You can try thicker wires and pit a ring terminal on the wire and bolt it to the contact.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

Yes I was worried about the alligator clips too so I’ve replaced them and used thicker wire. There’s still some difference but not as bad as before. I’ve now set the LVC on the device to 2.3V to compensate which is actually 2.5V at the terminals.

Thanks for everyone’s help. I think I’m good to test with this setup and work my way through all the cells. From the first lot of testing there were a couple that looked a bit suspect so I may need to source some more cells soon ;)
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

OK so once again its been way too long between posts so I'll add some photos to try and fill the gap up to where the project is now!

After sorting out the testing I used a fantastic 2p busbar kit made by @jonescg which made assembly really easy. The panels for the box were cut on a friends CNC router and welded by someone I found on Gumtree (not there yet with my welding skills) and the terminals were made with copper bar and a 3D printed bracket.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

Here's what the battery pack looks like installed.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

So everything was going great and my range had increased to 50-70km which was pretty much double what I could do before and meant I could now do a bit more exploring. Here's a couple of nice shots down at La Perouse.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

I also discovered the TeslAnything Adapter from EVolution that allows non-Tesla EVs to use their destination chargers and other Type 2 charge points. This paired with a faster charger setup meant I could explore a bit more.

https://electriccarcharger.com.au/produ ... oniq-phev/
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

I also started playing around with reading the current and battery SoC out of the ANT BMS and using an Arduino to drive the original gauges but unfortunately never got it working properly. I found an eBay seller that can make custom faces with the proper backlighting for a reasonable price too. Hopefully will get these working soon!
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

And then lockdown happened and in one of my "I'm in need of a project" late night impulse purchases, I bought a bunch of 117Ah NMC cells!!!
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

The battery box was mostly built with rivets and glue but I had help from a friend for the mounting brackets which are welded.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

So the battery is now 23s mainly because the controller can only handle 90V. At some point I'll upgrade and go to 26s. Max speed is now 110kmh and range is 150-200km (to be verified). Next step is to replace the DC-DC converter as I've now gone up in voltage a bit above what it's rated for and a new charger that the BMS can control over CAN.

I did a bit of research into CCS charging but that starts at 200V and I'll only be up to 110V once I'm done. Would have been nice though as the only time I'll need to charge now is when I'm going on longer rides on the weekend with friends and I/they don't want to be waiting around for more than a lunch break!
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by jonescg »

Wow, there's like, some history there! Be careful with those NMC cells as the case is live. Make sure you have a layer of FR4 between them, or else they'll fret and short out.
Otherwise it's great to see 150 km+ range on an e-moto. And the 110 km/h top speed is solid too.
Wonderful to see it still rolling.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

I'm using some of that green insulating fish/barley? paper between the cells, silicon sheet on the end plates and kapton tape on the insides of the box so hopefully that provides enough protection :shock:
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by necrogt4 »

Nice looking battery boxes! You've obviously spent some time designing and getting things neat...

Were you aiming to prevent conductivity between the sides of the new box by using polyimide on the equal angle joiner or just prevent shorts during assembly (been there)? It looks like the rivets will conduct from the outer face of the box through into the holes in the equal angle.

Also other than range, how do the new prismatic cells perform compared to the pouch cells?
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by coulomb »

One teensy nit :o

The fuse on the old box doesn't look to be DC rated. [ Edit: well, to above about 28 VDC. ] Hopefully fixed with the new boxes.

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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by Bukes »

Sweet! I rode an FZR 250 (3Ln3) for many years. Sold it several years ago now, but have many many great memories on that bike. Yours is in great condition! Mine had an open exhaust and used to scream at its max 18,500 rpm (!!). A lot of fun on a track too, they’re so light and nimble.
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My wife still has her ZZR250 from the same period (1992), and is showing an interest in converting it. It can be registered as a historic vehicle now (~$75 pa rego and same again for insurance… but limited in how far you can ride and how many days a year).

Thanks for sharing your story here, we may follow in your footsteps.

Will keep my Suzuki boulevard m90 as an ICE for a while yet though!
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

necrogt4 wrote: Tue, 04 Jan 2022, 11:39 Were you aiming to prevent conductivity between the sides of the new box by using polyimide on the equal angle joiner or just prevent shorts during assembly (been there)? It looks like the rivets will conduct from the outer face of the box through into the holes in the equal angle.
Its mainly there to prevent shorts if the cell wrapping fails as it’s a mobile application and things might move around and rub. Good point about the rivets, there’s some clearance between the rivets and the busbars but I’ll see if I can add some insulation around those the next time I have the box open 👍
necrogt4 wrote: Tue, 04 Jan 2022, 11:39 Also other than range, how do the new prismatic cells perform compared to the pouch cells?
So far they seem comparable. I would like to improve my initial take off acceleration but I’ve been thinking that’s an issue with the controller rather than the cells although maybe there’s a bit more of a lag with these cells than the previous ones. It’s hard to tell without a side-by-side comparison.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

coulomb wrote: Tue, 04 Jan 2022, 19:45 The fuse on the old box doesn't look to be DC rated. [ Edit: well, to above about 28 VDC. ] Hopefully fixed with the new boxes.
According to these specs they should be good up to 80VDC

https://www.grainger.com/product/BUSSMA ... Fuse-1DC77
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

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soyachips wrote: Sun, 09 Jan 2022, 11:00 According to these specs they should be good up to 80VDC
Ok, I'm surprised. But I'm guessing that your whole pack will be over 80 V. if so, when the modules are placed in series, a short in the controller or cables to the controller will cause the whole battery pack voltage to appear across the fuse that opens first. I'm not a fan of adding the voltage ratings of fuses in series. If they all start arcing, then the wiring isn't protected.

Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere in the topic, I'm mainly skimming this one. Motor bikes aren't my thing.

Edit: I'm thinking of Chris Jones' bike, but being a racing bike, it may be rather different to most.
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

Bukes wrote: Wed, 05 Jan 2022, 20:22 Sweet! I rode an FZR 250 (3Ln3) for many years. Sold it several years ago now, but have many many great memories on that bike. Yours is in great condition! Mine had an open exhaust and used to scream at its max 18,500 rpm (!!). A lot of fun on a track too, they’re so light and nimble.

My wife still has her ZZR250 from the same period (1992), and is showing an interest in converting it. It can be registered as a historic vehicle now (~$75 pa rego and same again for insurance… but limited in how far you can ride and how many days a year).

Thanks for sharing your story here, we may follow in your footsteps.

Will keep my Suzuki boulevard m90 as an ICE for a while yet though!
Yeah I didn’t realise when I started this project that I was taking a very very loud bike and making it virtually silent :D

I’ve got some weird noise coming from the front somewhere that I’m trying to locate and fix and a few other minor things to fix otherwise very happy with it and having lots of fun now that my range has increased. Will be installing a 3.3kW onboard charger and new DC-DC converter soon when they arrive.

I thought about getting historic plates but I didn’t think after the conversion it would qualify plus the limited kms thing wouldn’t have worked.

Good luck if you do decide to convert!!!
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by soyachips »

coulomb wrote: Sun, 09 Jan 2022, 11:08
soyachips wrote: Sun, 09 Jan 2022, 11:00 According to these specs they should be good up to 80VDC
Ok, I'm surprised. But I'm guessing that your whole pack will be over 80 V. if so, when the modules are placed in series, a short in the controller or cables to the controller will cause the whole battery pack voltage to appear across the fuse that opens first. I'm not a fan of adding the voltage ratings of fuses in series. If they all start arcing, then the wiring isn't protected.
The previous pack was just under 80V once the voltages settled after charging. Can you explain what you mean about adding voltage ratings of fuses in series? Also the fuse is on the battery pack positive terminal so wouldn’t that protect the wiring?
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Re: Soyachips’ Electric FZR250

Post by coulomb »

soyachips wrote: Sun, 09 Jan 2022, 12:22 The previous pack was just under 80V once the voltages settled after charging.
Oh, then that protects the cables (except when charging, and you'll probably just get away with it).
Can you explain what you mean about adding voltage ratings of fuses in series?
Some people believe that when you have breakers or fuses in series, you can add their voltage ratings. For example, if you had one of your 80 V rated fuses in the positive and in the negative lead, then they believe that would protect a 160 V pack. But since breakers and especially fuses don't open exactly at the same time, the first one to open can start an arc. When the second one opens, it gets nearly all the voltage as well, since the arc has a fairly low impedance (around four ohms, typically), so it arcs as well, and the fault is not cleared. Once an arc starts, it needs some 3000x the separation to extinguish the arc than room temperature non-ionised air does (1 V/mm versus 3000 V/mm). So you just can't afford to let an arc start.
Also the fuse is on the battery pack positive terminal so wouldn’t that protect the wiring?
Yes. But in my car-centred thinking, I thought you'd have 2 or more of these packs to make at least 160 V max, say 144 V nominal, since that is a fairly standard voltage for traction motors and controllers. In the multi-pack scenario, the 80 V fuses would not be adequate. In your case, they are.

Of course, one fuse in the positive side, while quite standard and safe, actually doesn't protect against every possible type of fault, e.g. a short between the negative end of the pack and any of the inter-cell connections. But it's just not practical to protect against all those, since it would basically require a fuse between every cell, and even that wouldn't prevent a short between the terminals of one cell. But a single cell short is guaranteed to be below 24 V, which is about the minimum voltage required to sustain an arc. It could still send copper snot flying, and soil underwear 💩, but likely won't start a fire. So we design our packs to be as safe as practicable, but no safer. The main thing to watch out for is where a battery string turns around at some point and heads back towards the same end it starts at; this is quite a common configuration of a series string of cells. Then the voltage between rows of cells increases as one moves towards the ends with the cables, so extra care should be taken to ensure that the parts of the pack with large potentials between them practically never have a chance to come into contact, even with vibration, wear and tear, aging, human failings, and so on. It's quite a responsibility, considering the amount of energy that could be unleashed, and in a motor bike, all that energy is of necessity quite close to the rider.
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