Tesla Powerwall

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reecho
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Post by reecho » Fri, 01 May 2015, 20:47

Announced a short time ago...

$3500USD for 10kWh

$3000USD for 7kWh

BUT.......Will they come here to Oz....

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[ Edited Coulomb: corrected units; added image ]
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 02 May 2015, 15:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 01 May 2015, 21:41

At over $420 US - just over $500 Au - kwh its not the price breakthrough I was expecting from tesla - stationary storage. I know there is some kind of inverter and a few other things included in that package but to run a house you would need at least 3 of the units for just over 20kwh of storage $10,000+

And you can bet on it being significantly more expensive than just exchange rate conversion pricing. If it did come to Australia.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 01 May 2015, 11:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jonescg » Fri, 01 May 2015, 21:56

According to RenewEconomy that price doesn't include the inverter

"The Powerwall is available in 10kWh, if wanted for backup applications, or 7kWh if optimised for daily use applications. Tesla says it will sell these batteries to installers for $US3,500 for 10kWh and $US3,000 for the 7kWh. This excludes the price of inverters and installation."

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/tesla-l ... ange-74034

More like Tesla "Powerball" Image
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Post by coulomb » Fri, 01 May 2015, 22:47

Also: 3.3 kW peak, 2.0 kW continuous.

How useful is that?

[ Edit: I guess it would suit a small house, and you can parallel units to increase energy storage and maximum power. ]

You'd also need a pretty sturdy wall mount for that 100 kg weight.
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 02 May 2015, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lesmando » Sat, 02 May 2015, 22:30

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Post by Adverse Effects » Sun, 03 May 2015, 00:14

link that works
[tube]https://youtu.be/yKORsrlN-2k[/tube]

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 03 May 2015, 01:30

In the presentation, Elon says that the "DC/DC converters and everything" are in the wall-mounted box. I assume that should have been "DC/AC inverter". He seemed (to me) to imply that the inverter is part of the US$3500 price. But as JonesCG quoted above, that contradicts what's on the RenewEconomy website.

I suppose that such technical details don't matter much to a billionaire, but I'd sure like to know.
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 02 May 2015, 15:47, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 03 May 2015, 01:43

I agree Coulomb. I think perhaps the inverter is in the box. They give efficiency numbers for the unit that are lower than you should get from lithium alone. So makes my think there is a inverter involved.

Offering just a battery without a inverter is a little strange for a company like Tesla. People want a appliance that's simple and sleek. Not a hotch botch of 3rd party additions.

Why put a 3kw limit less than 0.5C on a battery that can do a lot more. It's more likely the inverter is 3kw.

Telsa like the stacking of smaller units it's the same with there car chargers. Make one unit and just keep stacking.

Kurt

[ Edit Coulomb: corrected name ]
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Post by coulomb » Sun, 03 May 2015, 01:54

Then again, on the presskit page, from where RenewEconomy copied the specifications, it says "Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters" then mentions a bunch of inverter manufacturers that are partnering with Tesla. Maybe it's a terminology problem; maybe the DC/AC inverter is in the Powerwall, but these different manufacturers provide DC/DC converters for charging the battery from solar or wind. I didn't read the presskit page in detail yet.

Edit: the presskit page also has the "Price excludes inverter and installation" sentence.
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 02 May 2015, 16:01, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 03 May 2015, 02:13

I guess the DC to DC is the unit required to convert the solar voltage to the required battery voltage, that could be the same 375v nom. the Tesla uses and that would make sense as the battery management system is already developed so the Powerwall would just be a method of scaling up production. Interesting there is no mention of the inverter cost or the mains charger cost, I guess it's much like the Tesla itself, the price is the base model, not the optioned up model that the customer would actually buy.

Looking at the battery price alone, 10kW of battery storage for $5,000 with a 10 yr guarantee is not too bad and you get a BMS and DC to DC charger as well.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 03 May 2015, 02:21

Interesting,
            Isn't the battery much higher voltage than the typical 48v inverters. So I would say a particular line of inverters designed to run from much higher DC input would be needed.

Unless there is a DC/DC converter inside that's stepping it down (that would be silly though).

The way I see it is most people who have grid tie solar already have a inverter so it would be strange if they didn't make it compatible with what people already have. Perhaps just a AC battery charger in it.

Though that wouldn't solve the issue of how you make use of the battery.


If they want people to purchase a separate stand alone DC/AC inverter that can also feed AC to the grid that's going to be a significant additional cost when people have already invested in a grid tie PV inverter.

Totally confusing. I have no idea now Image

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Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 03 May 2015, 03:38

This article mashable.com lists

Mounting: Wall Mounted Indoor/Outdoor
Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters
Energy: 7kWh or 10kWh
Continuous Power: 2kW
Peak Power: 3kW
Round Trip Efficiency: >92%
Operating Temperature Range: -20C (-4F) to 43C (110F)
Warranty: 10 years
Dimensions: H: 1300mm W: 860mm D:180mm

so that says you still need a suitable inverter to actually use the stored energy.
"Based on the Tesla Model S battery, but redesigned from the ground up, the Powerwall is a 6-in. thick, 3 ft. by 4 ft design intended to fit within a regular electricity substation. "It looks awesome," says Musk."

To me this says it is the 375vdc battery pack in a different box, it has no liquid temp stabilisation, not a good move as I see it as an emergency back up power pack is going to be needed in the extreme weather conditions. A limit of 43*C in Aust is not very practical, a closed up house can get over that in mid summer without much difficulty, but I guess the addition of a cooling/heating system added to the cost/weight and made installation far more complex.
Is it Panasonic that sell a power pack with all inclusive solar to battery to 240vac management E3DC so they are already well ahead of the game and Elon is playing catch up. Panasonic bought Sanyo between 2008 and 2010 so they could fast track the technology required and have had these systems running in Germany for a while now.

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Post by lesmando » Sun, 03 May 2015, 14:51

This Bosch is limited to 40C. But it has everything in the one unit.

http://bosch-solar-storage.com

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Post by 4Springs » Sun, 03 May 2015, 15:15

offgridQLD wrote: Unless there is a DC/DC converter inside that's stepping it down (that would be silly though).

This seems to fit all the information, it goes in between your solar array and your inverter. What voltage do solar arrays normally produce? Lets say 48V as an example. The PowerWall charges from solar by stepping up the voltage from 48V to 375V. Then when power is requested by the inverter it steps its voltage down from 375V to 48V.
This sounds inefficient, but they quote 92%. Remember this figure doesn't include the AC inverter.

To me it sounds like this might be something that might be slightly less efficient, slightly more costly, but much more convenient. Do people still use lead-acid for most stand-alone power systems? To get 10kWh (usable) of lead-acid would be what, $5000 or more? And well over 500kg, and you'd need a room built to put them in.
So this might be a one-size-fits-all solution. If the voltage is adjustable then you just program it to fit your application. So it would be a drop-in product for people with existing solar systems to give them a bit more flexibility, or an off-the-shelf solution for installers of new systems.
T1 Terry wrote:To me this says it is the 375vdc battery pack in a different box, it has no liquid temp stabilisation, not a good move as I see it as an emergency back up power pack is going to be needed in the extreme weather conditions.
http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall wrote: Wall mounted, rechargeable lithium ion battery with liquid thermal control
So it looks like there is some liquid re-distribution of the heat. 48 degrees ambient is fine for where I live! Especially in the garage where I'd be likely to put the things. I'd assume that it would just turn off if it got too hot. That would be likely to be in the middle of the day when the sun is out, so it wouldn't be charging.

As for the 2kW continuous rating, I'm guessing that this is used as an input into your intelligent inverter. So if your house is using 3kW then 2 comes from the Powerwall and 1 comes from the grid.

Sounds interesting. I'm going to get a solar array sometime, and I'd love to be able to say I had a Tesla!

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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 03 May 2015, 15:46

"To me it sounds like this might be something that might be slightly less efficient, slightly more costly, but much more convenient. Do people still use lead-acid for most stand-alone power systems? To get 10kWh (usable) of lead-acid would be what, $5000 or more? And well over 500kg, and you'd need a room built to put them in."

I personally don't use lead acid for standalone and I'm sure anyone who is informed of the benefits of lithium and has access to the cells wouldn't be using it for the same reasons.

10kw usable energy (well lets say 8kw usable assuming max 80% DOD) would require about 40kw of lead acid (if you wanted to do it every day) and would cost over $10,000 for a good brand name lead acid.

I think the price considering it's a premium brand name with generous warranty is very competitive (in the US) but I would need to see a firm price in Australia before saying the same for us.

Perhaps some people in the US will purchase a few Tesla powerwalls just to strip the cells out and build a EV Image 20kw at 375v for $7000.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Sun, 03 May 2015, 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 03 May 2015, 15:56

The bigger unit might be a little better as far as available output/input, the max of 9 of these Powerwalls in series would give a useable output of 18kW but at a cost of $45,000 Aust pus what ever additional costs were involved. Hopefully the bigger unit would be more cost effective.

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Post by carnut1100 » Sun, 03 May 2015, 23:53

I have a few years left of 1:1 feed in on my grid tie system, then it reverts to 6c/kWh exported and 28c/kWh imported.
Before the grandfather clause expires I want enough storage to go off grid.
In the meantime, I want some degree of blackout protection, so when these land here I will be looking seriously at adding one or two...

It's either gonna be that, or doing it from scratch with prismatic so in a dedicated small shed.

We are selling my wife's house and ploughing some of the equity into mine, and apart from an extension and a new shed for me, we are going to completely rewire it with low voltage DC for all of the lights (LED) and have low voltage power points in every room (most appliances today are easily convertable to lvDC) with the eventual intention of either disconnecting from the grid, or keeping it on purely as a means of disposing of any excess power generation (assuming that the excess generation is worth more than the monthly connection fee....) so storage is going to be a big thing for us fairly soon.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 03 May 2015, 23:59

In some parts of Australia the connection fee is up to $1.60 pr day Image $580 pr year.

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 04 May 2015, 04:22

According to this DIYeectriccar.com post:

"You feed it 240 VAC @ 2 to 3 amps power to charge it, and it outputs 350 to 450 VDC. No Inverter is included. Just a 1 to 2 amps PFC charger, BMS, and liquid cooling thermal management are included."

I have no idea where he got this information from, or if it is accurate.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 04 May 2015, 04:29

carnut1100 wrote: ... we are going to completely rewire it with low voltage DC for all of the lights (LED) and have low voltage power points in every room (most appliances today are easily convertable to lvDC) ...

That's one way. The other is to use off-the-shelf 240 V LED lighting, and just stick with 240 VAC wiring, running off an inverter. The higher voltage keeps the cables thin (and you likely already have most of them, if not all of them), and the alternating current is much easier on the switches. You also don't have an ongoing conversion process, converting every appliance to DC. Although 240 VAC 50 Hz was chosen a long time ago for very different reasons, it's very convenient for the modern household.
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5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Post by Johny » Mon, 04 May 2015, 15:47

Solar City in cahoots with Tesla - helps for the bosses to be related.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/53 ... lar-power/

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Post by Johny » Mon, 04 May 2015, 16:09

My wife just heard an interview on 774 (ABC radio) with a Tesla rep. who said the Powerwall's next targeted market will be Australia. Intended release data around Christmas 2015.
Unfortunately they pushed the idea of load shifting (charging the pack during the night and using the power during the day) more than storing Solar energy.
The 10 year guaranteed life is to 60% capacity.
From what I can glean the Powerwall requires an external DC-AC inverter but has the charger on board.

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Post by Johny » Mon, 04 May 2015, 16:28

Yes it has liquid thermal management.
No it does not have an inverter.

Image

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 04 May 2015, 17:03

So we have established with some certainty. It's just a liquid cooled 10kw 375v DC battery bank with a built in 240v (110v in US) AC to 375v DC charger.

To use the stored energy you need to purchase a 3rd party 375v DC to 240v AC inverter from one of the partnering brands.

What I would like to know are the 375v DC to 240AC inverters also PV DC to AC inverts (as in people could have one box to do everything in a grid tie hybrid system)

A lot of the story will be answered when we have details of how the charging is managed. If it only lets you charge at night time and the charger is designed to be hardwired to a time of use meter. Then that's just pure load shifting and wont take any advantage of solar or do much other than benefit the utility providers and perhaps save you a little with lower tariffs. (I can only see that being a small saving when the units price is factored into the idea.

If it lets you charge the bank in the day time then people with excess PV production would have a place to store it. Though if its just using a AC charger I wonder if it will be any use if the grid was down. As all AC will be disconnected from the home.

It will be interesting to see how its managed. when where and how you can use the and recharge the thing.

Kurt






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Post by 4Springs » Mon, 04 May 2015, 17:27

These guys seem to be involved:http://www.repositpower.com/supported-hardware/
They make software which allows you to sell power to the grid at times of high market price. Definitely keeping an eye on this.

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