Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

For South Australian Members of the AEVA
Forum rules
All may view this forum, only AEVA Members may post here.
Post Reply
CometBoy
Groupie
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 02:59
Real Name: Bruce

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by CometBoy »

Some of you may be interested in this:

Spoke to Rob Mason earlier today about the next group (bulk) purchase of Li-Ion cells. For the next order it looks like the price will be around $1.50AUD/AH delivered (Last group order was $1.62AUD/AH so things are heading in the right direction!).

I think the next order will be placed within the next month or so.

If anyone is interested please contact Rob on 0407152552 or his email address is [url=mailto:robertmason6@bigpond.com]robertmason6@bigpond.com[/url] if you haven’t seen his website check out http://www.evwa.com.au/ .

Looks like you have a choice of 90, 160 or 200 AH batteries at the $1.50AUD/AH price... I will be placing an order with Rob but not till the end of this year or early next year. Still waiting on my new motor which should arrive before the end of August!

Cheers

Bruce

User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by DVR »

EMAIL fired off Image
Thanks Bruce Image


So long and thanks for all the fish.
User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by DVR »

I got a reply from Rob today and I can confirm that the price of $1.50 is a "confident approximate" as larger cells (90Ah and up)This price DOES NOT include freight to Adelaide, it's extra. The last shipment required 50% payment up front. As Thundersky requires 100% upfront Rob foots the rest.


So long and thanks for all the fish.
Rodney
Noobie
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue, 15 Jul 2008, 04:55
Real Name: Rodney O'Donohoe
Location: Adelaide, SA

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by Rodney »

Hi all,
I am also looking to purchase 24 Thunder Sky LFP90AHA batteries soon.

I've had some quotes from Rod Dilkes at EV Power Australia Pty Ltd (www.ev-power.com.au Ph +61 8 97572998) being just under $AUD 1.50 per AH +GST. This is for 90+ AH cells. Apparently it is more expensive to buy the 40 and 60AH cells, ($1.85/AH +GST for 60AH). So my motorbike will have 90AH cells, (heavy but will go far). EV Power also have an Aussie developed Battery Management System available.

I think it would be a good idea to pool our purchases with an Australian distributor if possible, to support their efforts, and to benefit from their experience, and volume pricing.

I know Thundersky give discounts based on the total amount of AH purchased. So these prices may improve. Also with the Aussie dollar strengthening, prices should continue to improve as time goes by, (unlike Petrol or in my case Diesel). Fortunately my diesel Ford Focus is looking to get more than 900Km out of its 52 Litre tank, not bad for around town.

Regards Rodney.
Current EVs:

Mitsubishi i MiEV MY12.
CometBoy
Groupie
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 02:59
Real Name: Bruce

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by CometBoy »

Thought Rod and Rob maybe imported the bulk cells from China in conjunction with each other? Is that not the case??

Cheers

Bruce
Rodney
Noobie
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue, 15 Jul 2008, 04:55
Real Name: Rodney O'Donohoe
Location: Adelaide, SA

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by Rodney »

I have absolutely no idea about that. I would make a lot of sense though.
Regards Rodney :-)
User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by DVR »

First thing I notice is that Rods price is PLUS GST and RoB price is inclusive of GST.
10% of $11000 = $110 in my pocket.
But I'm all in favor of a collective buy in Adelaide I'll be seriously looking at handing over money NoV-Dec.

Who else?


So long and thanks for all the fish.
CometBoy
Groupie
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 02:59
Real Name: Bruce

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by CometBoy »

I guess I should also state I have some reservation about the TS Chinese batteries.

I know there are very mixed reviews about their quality and specs (one such negative review is at http://www.casadelgato.com/ThunderSky/ ).

As an ex Canadian I have followed the Phostech cells with interest and with prices dropping on them as well, I will certainly think VERY closely about the decision when crunch time comes early next year. Keep in mind the real Phostech cells have 3000 cycles as opposed to 2,000 (if that!) on the TS products. And another player is A123 Systems but I think Phostech sued them for patent infringement (the final legal bill was rumoured to be over US$20million).

The simple fact is these have not been around long enough to really know the longer term issues.

I also strongly agree with the views on recycling largish Li-Ion cells - another future issue we will need to deal with in Australia...

So from your research on Li-Ion cells what views have you guys got? Maybe you get what you pay for??

Bruce
User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by DVR »

All I know about thundersky batts is that as near as I can tell All their quality issues were with the older 1st GEN cells(like the ones discussed in the link above), I think they were grey but I'm colour blind so take that with a pinch of salt they could have been blue.

I haven't personally heard from anyone on the DIYEV forum which has 2,3080 members who have said they got bad ones, even though this is a regularly discussed issue. To be sure a lot of people express similar concerns to Cometboy but no one has said "My new yellow ones are rubbish!"


So long and thanks for all the fish.
User avatar
woody
Senior Member
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 02:03
Real Name: Anthony Wood
Location: Mt Colah

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by woody »

Hey DVR: 10% of $11,000 = $1,100 ;-)
CometBoy
Groupie
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 02:59
Real Name: Bruce

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by CometBoy »

DVR for current views (last few weeks) have a look at:

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html# ... td18330177

or the Yahoo group on them

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Thun ... roup&slk=1

Still some concerns around in my view?

We are spending a lot of money here and one of my main issues is the projected number of cycles for the dollar.

Cheers

Bruce
Rodney
Noobie
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue, 15 Jul 2008, 04:55
Real Name: Rodney O'Donohoe
Location: Adelaide, SA

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by Rodney »

WARNING: This response is a bit long, and contains personal ranting.

It is known that some early LP cells (white), (not the Yellow LFP LiFePO4 cells), had some "reported" problems (probably true). These were a different chemistry, so it is not likely to be relevant.

<RANT>
Also I know how easy it is for a Troll (Business competitor, Oil Industry, Automotive Industry, Reciever of Fuel Cell development funding, other Battery makers etc) to cause great doubt, by simply suggesting there might be a problem (No proof required, media spin will do just fine). Hell, a few questionable "scientific reports" denouncing the Greenhouse affect were able to cause enough doubt to overshaddow the many hundreds, if not thousands of peer reviewed journals which confirmed the accepted reality of today. A similar situation occured with asbestos, smoking, Dioxins, CCA treated pine (not entirely banned in Australia yet), dare I say the low power but Ionising radiation from mobile phones . I know you are a very smart bloke, so you get the idea.
</RANT>

They way I look at it is: There are quite a lot of people using TS LFP Lithium cells, and only one or two have complained; On the other hand, there are many Lead Acid users out there who accept that there batteries aren't really up to the job. (They are fine for 30 to 50Km, but that doesn't really cut it). Low expectations make happy customers (aka Cheap as Chips).

A close friend of mine is able to buy brand name Lead Acid (PbH) AGM gel batteries at wholesale prices through their work. These were once a cheap buy for me at about $8 for a 7AH 12V battery, with lead going up so much in price, they are now $15. Now a 2.2Kg 7AH PbH is good for about 1 hour at 4A due to the Peurket’s effect. That is $15 divide by 4 = $3.75 per AH at 12V (0.55Kg/AH) which equals 4 LFP cells, or $0.94 per 3V cell per AH. However you would be very lucky to get 300 cycles out of them at any decent level of discharge. If I can get just 500 cycles from the claimed 2000-3000, then financially I'm in front.

Also the weight is a major issue especially for my bike. 6 12V PbH OPTIMA® YellowTop S 5,5 (75AH at C/20 = about 40AH at 1C) would weigh 6*26.5Kg = 159Kg (not an option for me), while 24 LFP40 (also good for about 40AH) would weigh 24*1.5=36Kg (if thats all I want more).

In summary:
PbH is too heavy to give a decent range, therefore definitely won't do the job.
TS LFP can give me a decent range, without breaking the wheels. Life span appears ok but possibly risky, (that's life).

Conclusion:
Better for my bike to have lived a risky (perhaps shorter than expected) life, than not to be born.

In engineering you usually go for the option which sucks the least. There are no guarantees, just good marketing, backed up by testing, statistical analysis, and hence a predicted warranty cost per unit.

If you stay within the "rated" specifications of every component, the design should be "reliable", if not then at least you have a reason to complain about the parts being "out of specification".

I know this is a "bit risky", but that's why it "Interesting".

Regards Rodney :-)
Current EVs:

Mitsubishi i MiEV MY12.
CometBoy
Groupie
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 02:59
Real Name: Bruce

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by CometBoy »

Good points Rodney (yes, I’ve seen “Who Killed the Electric Car?”) The world is evil!

Trying to find good up-to-date independent testing and reviews seems very hard on Li-Ion!

Zeva have done some testing along the way and are a good source of information. Just spoke to Ian at http://www.zeva.com.au/ about the recent Thundersky LiFePO4 (LFP’s) products and he knows of no current issues with the new cells at all. AND apparently there are independent cycle tests on the LFP’s that demonstrate 2000 to 3000 cycles life (will try and find the reference). So this total agrees with DVR’s comments earlier....

The non- licensing (Copyright) issue to Phostech(?) is still there.

Will be an interesting market to follow and obviously best to hold off your order until you actually need to put them into service - allowing for 2 to 3 months lead time.
CometBoy
Groupie
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 02:59
Real Name: Bruce

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by CometBoy »

Just became a member of the TS discussion forum on Yahoo Groups, if you are interested in reading more on this subject there is a lot of current good stuff there, including posts by Rod Dilkes. Most of you have most likely already joined this group! It is very active....

This link on the ThoRR (an EV on a Lotus Super 7 type chassis) was forwarded to me this morning, interesting specs and 10C LiPo cells used.

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/04/th ... style.html

Bruce
User avatar
ev1
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri, 11 Jul 2008, 03:05
Real Name: dickson beattie
Location: adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by ev1 »

hi guys,
I'm trying to get a group purchase of Li Ion batteries for Adelaide. We can do $1.40 per amp hour including GST and shipping direct - batteries will be shipped direct to Adelaide. Let me know your thoughts.?????
CometBoy
Groupie
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 02:59
Real Name: Bruce

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by CometBoy »

Good price! Is that for TS LFP 90Ah cells or what sizes are you going for?

You are about 4 months too early for me but what is the delivery schedule? I am just doing the battery compartment today for 40 of their 90Ah batteries, but I have completely striped the car for a total respray. So this will take me 2 - 3 months to finish.

Thanks

Bruce
User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by DVR »

Are these thundersky?
I'm in the same boat as cometboy
I'f your still doing it in early Nov I'm in.


So long and thanks for all the fish.
User avatar
ev1
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri, 11 Jul 2008, 03:05
Real Name: dickson beattie
Location: adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by ev1 »

That was a quick response!!
yes its the TS LFP90,160 or 200....
there is definately no hurry, i think Nov. would be good Image
don't forget typically takes about 6 weeks to deliver....
CometBoy
Groupie
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 02:59
Real Name: Bruce

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by CometBoy »

Well that suits me just fine!

So are you proposing going direct or via the guys in the west?? Any idea of payment details and arrangements???

Good stuff...

Cheers

Bruce
User avatar
evric
Site Admin
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun, 20 Jul 2008, 01:57
Real Name: Eric
Location: Adelaide SA
Contact:

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by evric »

Hi,
I would be in for about 40 LFP 90Ah cells and November would be fine for me. Hey, we'll get the price even lower with these quantities.
Regards Eric.
User avatar
ev1
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri, 11 Jul 2008, 03:05
Real Name: dickson beattie
Location: adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by ev1 »

hi guys,
any one still keen for the thunder sky batteries???, could be a good time to place orders as we are making a large order within the next week.!!
User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by DVR »

Hey Dickson, care to share the current price for thunderskies?
If the dollar keeps dropping I dont know if I'll still be in the market when I finally get my money together.


So long and thanks for all the fish.
User avatar
ev1
Noobie
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri, 11 Jul 2008, 03:05
Real Name: dickson beattie
Location: adelaide

Bulk Li Ion purchases for 2008

Post by ev1 »

Not too certain of price right now, i am just watching the aussie dollar!!- wait until the dust settles maybe in a few days!!!
Image Image??????
Post Reply