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Kearon
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Post by Kearon » Wed, 20 May 2009, 15:07

Hey all,
I finally watched the segment last night - well, at least the second half of it.
Is it common knowledge yet that they had installed an old Kostov motor - which (I'm told) spins the WRONG way around - thus, they had 4 speeds in reverse and 1 speed forwards - THAT's why they couldn't get the car going any faster - they were using the reverse gear!!
Funny that they didn't mention that in the show....Hmm....

In fact, this was the first episode of TGA I'd ever seen - the obviously written lines (to mimick the UK casts banter) are delivered really painfully....coz the guys aren't actors. Ugh...Such is the state of television production in Australia....
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Post by weber » Wed, 20 May 2009, 15:31

Kearon wrote: THAT's why they couldn't get the car going any faster - they were using the reverse gear!!
Funny that they didn't mention that in the show....Hmm....

That explains why it was so noisy too. The woop-woop "three stooges" noise. Reverse gears are straight cut, not helical.

And what kind of moron would run power cables over the seats, just so they could complain about how dangerous it was?
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Post by Thalass » Wed, 20 May 2009, 16:09

They should get some of the v8 supertaxi drivers as hosts. Judging by that panel show a bunch of them hosted a couple of years ago before each race weekend they do have good personalities for this sort of thing, and work well together. Unlike these three who probably never worked together before. (who is that guy who did the mightybo?) It might even have a lower percentage falcodore content! Surely a retired v8 supercar driver would be sick to death of holden vs ford.

Of course channel 10 owns those guys, so that probaly won't happen.
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Post by Squiggles » Wed, 20 May 2009, 16:18

Channel 10 could sponsor a race series of formula E with 20 Lap races having mandatory pit stops to change battery packs. Environmentally friendly car racing, no emissions, low noise surely even the greens would back it! Could spawn a whole new industry, might even prevent the need for our government to prop up the dead car industry.....oh wait I am dreaming again.

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Post by coulomb » Wed, 20 May 2009, 17:35

Kearon wrote: Is it common knowledge yet that they had installed an old Kostov motor - which (I'm told) spins the WRONG way around - thus, they had 4 speeds in reverse and 1 speed forwards - THAT's why they couldn't get the car going any faster - they were using the reverse gear!!
Funny that they didn't mention that in the show....

Funny? This is scandalous! There are 4 terminals on top of a Kostov:
Image
You just swap any pair (field or armature) and it runs in reverse... or am I missing something? Sure, you should adjust the timing and re-set (?) the brushes, but the point is if they were in a hurry, it would have been trivial to make it work in the right direction.

They did mention that the motor was from Russia, so it very likely was a Kostov. I do seem to recall that they are a bit different, and I don't know how the interpoles affect direction of rotation. But there are several conversions with Kostovs, and they are regarded as fine motors, if you can get them. Quite powerful, since the interpoles mean you can go to a high voltage (way more than 144 V, for example, as they used on the show).

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Post by Squiggles » Wed, 20 May 2009, 19:02

The Kostov motors seem to be cheaper & lighter than the comparable Netgain motors. http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmotors ... fevmotors/

Does anybody out there have advanced knowledge in this regard?

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 20 May 2009, 19:04

The last production road vehicle (milk carts excluded) to have a commutator was back in 1918 or thereabouts. This is 2009 !
I had to throw that point in.

I still feel that little harm was done by the TGA episode and that they have in fact openned the flood gate by even entertaining the conversion market. We all see through TGA's mistakes. Image
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Post by Thalass » Wed, 20 May 2009, 19:58

This top gear thing, plus Kearon's news story, can surely only fire up the curiosity of those people who are conversion-minded (those with The Knack, I suppose). I still don't think many regular people will do much more than a quick google search until they can find a multitude of conversion companies that'll do the hard work for them.

But it all helps! Each converted car surely spawns five or six interested converters.
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Post by BjBlaster » Thu, 21 May 2009, 23:22

Thalass wrote:(those with The Knack, I suppose).
sorry couldn't help it, had to post this :) The Knack
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Post by Nakey » Fri, 22 May 2009, 03:00

hi all,

firstly props to kearon for mention me on his site.

secondly topgear and the kostov. i'm the australian distributer now and i purchaced the paticular kostov they used on topgear for doc symonds.

both this motor and its twin (in the starion) have a history. they were both used in the olympics for electric busses commissioned by Mr knight and converted by Farnow. the lads there straped the motor next to the transmission (side by side) and used a drive belt to deliver the motive force. motor being oriantated backwards was configured to run backwards. thats how i bought it and i assume that how the topgear boys recieved it.

the picture shows the original configuration (D1-B2) when i went to pick it up. the green line is the configuration used for running the motor the correct way (D1-B1).

what can i say, they had my number.Image

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Post by htial » Fri, 22 May 2009, 06:06

I know this goes off topic again...   ...but I've posted Kearon's video that I recorded down in Melbourne on YouTube here...

Still trying to work out how to send it to you Kearon...   ...Maybe on a disk by mail...

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 22 May 2009, 08:59

Welcome to the forum Nakey.
Finally, a source for these mystical kostovs.

Those things when coupled with a zilla 2k are scary.
2 x kostov 11s + 1 x zilla 2k and 2x 20s optima yellow tops can push 2000kg from 0-100kmh in 4 sec.

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Post by Nakey » Fri, 22 May 2009, 17:29

hey matt,

i've acually been with the forum for a while i just never use it.

the Z2k isn't enough. each kostov draws 1500amps at its peak bringing colossal torque to the tar. the fact that they are rigged for 240 volts makes them even more formadable as 300 volts is just a few batteries away (can't imagine the voltage drop when these things fire up).

did i mention theres a 13 inch version?

nakey

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 22 May 2009, 20:02

the two motors had series/parrallel contactors, so on take off both motors saw the full 2000A.

the 13" would be scary.

do you have any performance and efficiency curves for the kostov motors?
thus far we've just been going by the occasion bit of information from when white zombie ran a kostov 11.

an optima yellow top at 750A for 4 sec sags to 10-11v from memory.

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Post by Nakey » Fri, 22 May 2009, 22:09

series/parrallel with twin kostovs would make for one insaine ride. with thundersky batteries a 300v 160ah pack would weigh in at 500kg. however the power would really make her move even under that kind of weight.

check out everything kostov at http://kostov-motors.com

the topgear motor is the old version they've upgraded the specs recently.


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Post by Squiggles » Fri, 22 May 2009, 23:55

So has anyone got a good reason not to consider a 9" 144v Kostov?
Are the netgains or ADC really worth the extra cash?

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 23 May 2009, 09:45

if the 9" kostov has interpoles, as the 11" does, then the kostov 9" would be a far better motor than the netgain or ADC ones.

the performance curves are also for your actual traction voltage.
pity none are shown at a current higher than 500A

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Post by Taffy » Sat, 23 May 2009, 14:34

In terms of pricing (all in US$ to be fair)
(all prices from googling so maybe cheaper available)
9" Impulse Netgain is US$1,675.00
9" Warp Netgain is US$1,750.00
9" ADC FB1-4001 is US$1773.36
9" Kostov (all versions) is us$1,500.00

The Warps, netgains and Kostovs appear to be peak rated around the 100hp mark.

The problem is that you cant compare apples with apples as there testing info is not standardized. ADC and Kostov are 120V+ while netgain is 72V


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Post by Squiggles » Sat, 23 May 2009, 16:27

So A$300+ saving for a Kostov that is potentially a superior device.
I will take a serious look, mind you that is difficult as non of the manufactures are forthcoming with specifications. They all seem vague, inconsistent and sometimes contradictory, almost like they have something to hide!

edit: I will say Kostov supply decent mechanical drawings at least.

edit: Actually closer inspection of Kostov drawing shows it includes substantial electrical information....they are looking better all the time :)
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 23 May 2009, 16:55

Huh! You should try getting information on Chinese motors some time.
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Post by Squiggles » Sat, 23 May 2009, 17:09

antiscab wrote: if the 9" kostov has interpoles, as the 11" does, then the kostov 9" would be a far better motor than the netgain or ADC ones.

the performance curves are also for your actual traction voltage.
pity none are shown at a current higher than 500A

Matt


From Kostov 9" drawing "Interpoles YES".

Is this a good sign?

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Post by Taffy » Sat, 23 May 2009, 19:47

Wild guess, yes :P.

There is a thread about importing chinese motors at DIYelectriccar forums/motors area, they got them into the US for about US$1300 including postage.

Nakey, are you about provide some prices on the 9" motors in australia?

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 23 May 2009, 21:49

Squiggles wrote:

From Kostov 9" drawing "Interpoles YES".

Is this a good sign?


Yes, interpoles reduce the variation of ideal brush advance from 0, at high speed (also high voltage) and high current.

This improves power factor forward of the brushes (think of it as a sync motor running with a square wave input).

It also means your are less likely to encounter arcing on the comutator.

The motor is both more efficient, *and* more tolerant of more than reated voltage and current.

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Post by Squiggles » Sat, 23 May 2009, 21:52

Does this mean that running the motor in reverse is less of an issue?
I have noticed that with the other brands you have to reset the brushes if you are going to run the motor in both directions.

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 23 May 2009, 21:57

usually when you have interpoles, the timing would be neutral, or fairly close to neutral.
so yes, running reverse is not an issue

even for a motor without interpoles this isnt an issue as you aren't going to be runing the motor at anywhere near full power in reverse anyway.
The ideal timing changes with current and rpm, where as the tolerance to mis-advance reduces as you increase voltage.
if you dont apply as much voltage to a forward advanced motor in reverse, you shouldn't have a problem.

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