DC Fast Charger location question

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jonescg
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by jonescg »

Dear EV motorists,

Lets say you heard that one single, solitary, DC fast charger was going to be installed by your city. Lets also assume that the DC fast charge protocol has been effectively implemented into DIY conversions by now too. Lets also assume that there is a parking limit of 30 mins MAX.

Where would you like to see the charger installed? There is a good argument to install it in the middle of town because it is more likely to see considerably more use as people will have an opportunity charge. The downside is that the city's EV community still can't leave town. Alternatively, if the fast charger was installed about 80-100 km from the CBD along a popular route out of town, it would enable the EV motorist to leave town and get somewhere over 200 km away. Also, it makes 200 km round trip achievable within 2.5 hours. The downside here is that it's going to be away from the highest population density and receive far less traffic.

If you had one shot at getting a fast DC charger installed, where should it go? Where would it be most effective? Where would you really appreciate it, and where would it simply be a novelty?

As we start to build electric transport networks for the future, being as strategic as possible will be very important. Speak up!

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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by Gabz »

in two minds Sydney has theirs just outside the CBD, and it enables people going from one side to the other with more ease. and it's doing mostly a good job except for having a chirstmas holiday which caught some people out. the 2nd mind is that your other option is the one I'm currently trying to find some money for.

the honest answer is you will more than 1 shot I would put the 1st one somewhere public, as advertising. the 2nd one will come eventually.
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by acmotor »

You can't just install one.
One doesn't make a highway. Not even Sydney to Canberra.
Forget the public look. Consider the function. The public will hear about it from the people who use the highway.
There have been DC fast chargers installed in show off places, now let's put them in useful places.

A highway must join two centres. Or a centre and an area.
Perth to the southwest, around 250-300km.
That means 3 charging stations minimum.

Mandurah, Myalup roadhouse, Busselton

If you have to install one, make it Myalup. I can slow charge in other places where there is something to do. Image
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by Gabz »

have to disagree with acmotor you need to put the first one in WA within driving distance of most of the production EVs

once each production EV has fast charged once you'll see there wallets open to help fund the 2nd one !
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by adelaide-ev »

Well, I have a few answers for Adelaide. As I live relatively close to the existing FC which is on the main road 15 mins south of the city (Mitsubishi) and would also cover a return journey to the hills (east), I'd be looking for FC which allowed me to travel further north/south on weekends.
I also think a lot of suburban commuters would just recharge at home anyway. Not much of Adelaide would be more than 100km return daily commute.

So, travelling north I think Gawler would be great - would allow day trippers to the Barossa and surrounds (may need to FC again for the trip home after sightseeing).

Further north, Port Wakefield would open up the Yorke Peninsula and is already a major fuel/coffee/bakery stop.

Heading south, a FC at Victor Harbor, would allow day trippers to return home again too.

And, if the experiment putting all those chargers on Kangaroo Island was ever meant to encourage people to bring their own EV - there would need to be one at Cape Jervis, whilst waiting to board the ferry, after driving 105km from Adelaide! Otherwise there will be a huge backlog at Penneshaw slow charger before we can start sightseeing!

Yes, I know the question was if you could have only one FC........but we already have one!!!
Last edited by adelaide-ev on Wed, 08 Jan 2014, 15:55, edited 1 time in total.
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by Gabz »

adelaide-ev wrote:
And, if the experiment putting all those chargers on Kangaroo Island was ever meant to encourage people to bring their own EV - there would need to be one at Cape Jervis, whilst waiting to board the ferry, after driving 105km from Adelaide! Otherwise there will be a huge backlog at Penneshaw charger before we can start sightseeing!


offtopic: but that is a good point you should write to kangaroo island council and suggest it. or even the ferry operator as that would be logical place to charge while waiting.
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by jonescg »

Thanks for the replies people, keep them coming.

It's important to remember here that the caveat is one charger only. Because no matter who pays for the installation the charger, there's a very good chance it will be the only one for a long time. We're pushing our hardest to get more than one. But in terms of furthering the EV cause, we need to get it right.

In my view, the only thing holding EVs back in Australia outside of price is range. What single thing does a fast charger provide? Convenience. When do you need convenience the most? When time is in short supply. Which is when? ...

Well if you happen to be crossing town on half a charge and you know you'll need a charge away from home at some point, a fast one might be a good option. But if you run out of time and find yourself short, you can probably at least find a GPO or level 2 charge point. At worst you can lock the car and ride the bus home.

If you're halfway between Brisbane and Warwick, you'll NEED a charge and you'll need it fast. The bakery cafe is pretty good at Aratula but it closes at 5 pm...

An Indegogo / Kickstarter fund is going to be organised for establishing Australia's electric highways, one fast charger at a time. Gabz and I will keep you posted on it's progress, but it's important that we all get behind it.
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by acmotor »

But Gabz, if we follow your line we install a FC in Perth CBD. What a waste IMHO. It does not form one of the FCs required for a highway.
Go for Mandurah as first site as a compromise maybe ? There are EVs there too.

If we did install a CBD FC then it must not be grid powered if you want demonstration site, it must be direct PV and storage battery, no pretend grid connected system.

Chris, why are you thinking so small ?

Edit: the money spent on EV trials and menekes connectors would have bought a dozen FCs.
Last edited by acmotor on Wed, 08 Jan 2014, 18:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jonescg »

I'm testing the interest levels here, so setting a realistic goal is a smart thing to do. Besides, there's not a lot of money and it belongs to someone else. DC fast chargers cost north of $50,000 with basic installation conditions, while anything needing a transformer will cost closer to $80k. Sure, go solar with batteries if the site justifies it, just bloody build the things!

We want to get the ball rolling so that fast chargers start popping up on our highways on their own without special assistance. Since most EVs have a practical range of 100 km, we should aim to get one installed on our most popular route - down south. Mandurah or Ravenswood are great options.

Western Australia has a unique opportunity to have it's first DC fast charger installed this year, and I am very concerned it will be put somewhere close to town where it will be as useful as a screen door on a submarine. I want to gauge the interest of the EV community for having one installed somewhere which has far more impact.

A charger in town will happen, but we don't need it as much as we need one between Perth and Bunbury.

And yes, the EV Trial was perhaps not money well spent, but it did confirm that human nature still overrides many decisions, like free stuff = good Image
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by acmotor »

Have you got prices off tritium ?

A single FC installed for a highway is like a one legged horse and won't in itself provide the demonstration site that would be desired. So you can FC but where can you go ? Push for the complete package.
If you can get 50k then rake around for the rest of the funding. Then you will have a demonstration highway ! Not just to service the present EVs but to make EVs viable for many more folk who are put off by range.
Not meaning to be ungrateful but you get the point.

The snowball idea from a single FC just doesn't cut it in a hot climate like Oz. Image
If you can only get one FC then it must be clearly stated that it is part of a highway that will follow within months and not a demonstration such that the other 3 legs will only come along if the first one is a roaring success. Coz it won't be.
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by jonescg »

acmotor wrote: Have you got prices off tritium ?
Yes, and we're in the same ballpark
acmotor wrote:A single FC installed for a highway is like a one legged horse and won't in itself provide the demonstration site that would be desired. So you can FC but where can you go ? Push for the complete package.
Perth - Mandurah - Bunbury. That is the Forrest highway in it's entirety. Slow charge anywhere in Perth the night before, drive to Mandurah for a 30 minute fast charge, then drive to Bunbury for an overnight charge before relaxing holiday. One FC needed.
acmotor wrote:If you can get 50k then rake around for the rest of the funding. Then you will have a demonstration highway ! Not just to service the present EVs but to make EVs viable for many more folk who are put off by range. Not meaning to be ungrateful but you get the point.
We're doing our best to secure any money, and the medium term plan is to place three fast chargers on the route - Mandurah, Bunbury, Margs, but it all starts with one.
acmotor wrote:If you can only get one FC then it must be clearly stated that it is part of a highway that will follow within months and not a demonstration such that the other 3 legs will only come along if the first one is a roaring success. Coz it won't be.


That's what I've been saying all along...
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DC Fast Charger location question

Post by acmotor »

You don't need a FC at margs ??? It is just one of the possible end points and would be best served by slower AC charging onite. I know Rod may like an FC but it would be wasted in that location. Margs to Bunbury is too far anyway.
You do need another mid point between Mandurah and Bunbury like Myalup.

What are mitsubishi's own prices for FC ?
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Post by acmotor »

Just thinking on it.
You may well leave Mandurah with only 80% charge from a time limit FC and Bunbury is 107km. Not an option at highway speed.
If you don't make the highway something that folk can use then it won't get used.

Maybe if you very clearly make multiple 15A 24hour charge points available officially as actual part of the highway then that may tide you over till the FCs are extended.

What I'm saying is that if you don't do a highway properly then the EVs won't come.
I won't stay onite at Bunbury more than once. I might as well drive the ICE.
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And if your aim was to reach margs then Mandurah, Myalup, Busselton would be better, or swap Busselton for Capel. It comes back to putting FCs where they are needed not where you can say look at me.
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Post by Gabz »

I think your making the mistake or assuming that no one in Mandurah will ever own an EV. your highway without a level 3 in perth will only go one way !

as someone who lives in what sydney people would call a regional centre you get overlooked all the time.

I'm sure people who live in Mandurah make a trip to perth more times a year than people in perth make a trip to mandurah. and Mandurah is the next place you need to get support for a level 3.

Once you have a level 3 in perth you sit the mayor of Mandurah in a LEAF or a i-miev and you let him drive to perth fast charge then let him drive around perth do what he needs to do watch the football etc.. and then let him fast charge and drive home. at least then if you can't get money out of him/her you'll get an easier ride as he might provide council land or electricity to charge number 2
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Post by acmotor »

I've already noted that there are EVs in Mandurah. We'll I know personally of two. But that is just it. Your suggestion that they visit Perth more often than the 50 or 100 EVs from Perth visit Mandurah may be true, but then how many of the Perth EVs would pass through Mandurah if it was on an electric highway to the southwest ?

Also, if someone from Mandurah visits Perth it is for the day, not 30 minutes or even 2 hours. They can already 15A charge in several council car parks from Fremantle to Perth. 3 to 4 hours is all that is required. That makes a FC a waste. They have to wait around for the FC, only get 80% maybe and then move to a parking location. That is wasting their day in Perth. If they came in to work then why on earth FC ?

An FC in Perth will potentially get bogged down by users who treat it like a service station and didn't need their charge to be a FC so that the guy from Mandurah can't get a timely charge. The system will have egg on its face when the mayor from Mandurah can't plug in.

Put an FC outside Perth and it will be used and required as an FC, otherwise it will just be used for a FC that didn't need to be a FC. You just need 15A and perhaps cater for 32A at plenty of parking locations in Perth.

But a highway is where FC is actually required. Enroute to somewhere. Not at the end points.

Let's go for function not bling.
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Post by Gabz »

bogged down you don't even have a single one and you think that if you did it would be over worked! even it is used that's even better you'll be able to recoup the cost of it faster and have more money for the 2nd one !

if the level 3 charger is a failure if underused and you can't even find enough money to pay off the daily service charge. so if your convinced it'll be used as a service station, then that's the best outcome as you'll be able to cover cost of running and quickly gain capital for number 2
Last edited by Gabz on Thu, 09 Jan 2014, 04:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jonescg »

Okay Tuarn, you're not reading the problem as it stands.

Without doing anything, WA is about to be gifted ONE single fast charger. I have NO idea if, or when, there will be a second one, and I think it would be rather rude to ask for another one (or three) from the generous donor. So where should our one and only charger go? I am asking all EV drivers to contribute their thoughts, as the same problem could apply to Hobart, Darwin, Brisbane, Newcastle etc.

Now, in the event we come across enough money to buy three more fast chargers, we can install them all the way to and (including) Margs. Lets say you arrive at 3 pm in Margs on empty. Your winery date starts at 4 pm. You can get a quick charge in before driving the 35 km to the winery. You can possibly even get a slow charge while you're tasting Shiraz. This is all by the by, and belongs in another thread about actual charger locations...

Wait, your iMiEV can't do 100 km? That blows.


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Post by acmotor »

First things first.
Heading off on a 100km run with 80%. SOC at 100 km/h on highway is not going to happen in an iMiEV, leaf or least of all a focus. You know that.     In a tesla yes, but then it could do the whole trip anyway.

I am just expressing the logic of a FC highway that I would hope any first FC in WA would contribute to.

Surely someone gifting an FC would want it to be located in the most effective location. You haven't said, is it public or private money ?

You could just put it anywhere coz it was free Image

Bogged down means the difference between function and bling maybe ? Ok, you choose.

Pay for itself ? What, are you going to charge me $20 to charge ? That way it will take $50,000 / 20 = 2,500 charges ignoring electricity cost etc. so some years. EV batteries will be better by then, we need the FCs now ! Hang on, who is going to pay $ for a Fast charge ? Business model shot there.



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Post by Gabz »

acmotor wrote: Hang on, who is going to pay $ for a Fast charge ? Business model shot there.

there are very few free ones ! NRMA sydney, the ones in Melbourne cost. Adelaide not for public use.

If you look overseas the Americans charge between $6 -$10 USD per charge. the UK has prices of £5 — £8 for a quick charge

If you think level 3 charging will be free in the future then your dreaming !

Level 3 charging is a premium service if your not willing to pay for it you'll never see more than 1 in Perth.
Last edited by Gabz on Thu, 09 Jan 2014, 06:33, edited 1 time in total.
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The charger is being gifted with private money. Future chargers will likely be paid for with some public money, but there is nothing in the pipeline yet. Yes, more than one charger is needed, yes these need to be in the right spots, yes they need to form a useful network. But the location of the first charger is important. In town or out of town.

Sometimes your arguments baffle me. You are effectively in furious agreement, only to then argue that the other side is wrong... Image

[Start WA-centric discussion]
Ravenswood, which is close to Mandurah, close to the freeway, close to Pinjara, and a nice spot by the river, is 88 km from Balga, a mid-northern suburb of Perth. This is well within the range of an iMiEV, Leaf, Focus, whatever. The next stop would be Bunbury, 98 km away. Again, sailing close to the wind, but within reach. If you're going to have a charger which requires 30 minutes of your occupied time, it might as well be somewhere interesting. Adding another charger between the two? Now that would be waste.

As you say, batteries will soon be good enough that you can have one every 200 km...
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Post by acmotor »

Gabz wants FC in the CBD, Chris wants one at Ravenswood ?
I support the latter with the realistic reservations pointed out.

Where does the private sponsor want the FC ? Who is the sponsor, is there a commercial intent ? I'm not wanting to look a gift horse in the mouth, but knowing a little more may help. As I am saying, the bigger picture is my focus.

Which FCs in Oz so far charge for charge ? I think I have paid enough premium already in buying an early EV. Perhaps we can have a vote on that by EV owners ? It won't be long before a road tax is added to EV power. I think the Brisbane guys are flagging the gouge. Yes, you are dreaming that it will always be free, but right now it absolutely should. Or do you think Oz has gone overboard already with EV support ?
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Post by Gabz »

I did state before that Melbourne charge
http://www.recargo.com/sites/10320 and http://www.recargo.com/sites/10408 the betterplace ones did charge by charging for a membership

Leafboi informs me that if he visit it twice in a day it's $4 something, and prices will go up after the initial 12 months.

The problem with your premium is that you paid that to Mitsubishi, so tell them you demand a free one! Nissian in the USA provide a $15kUSD rebate on level 3 chargers. and of course Tesla charge you a premium and you get premium service too.

also I don't live in Perth or even WA, so i don't really want one in the CBD. I just think it's the better business case based on observations.
Last edited by Gabz on Thu, 09 Jan 2014, 09:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by acmotor »

Gabz neither of those web sites refer to a charge for charge ? In fact leafboi's last entry says " free to park and charge as at 8/7/2013"
If he is charged $4 on a second visit then that would only go toward the cost of two charges plus parking ! No return on capital for the FC.

The premium went to mitsi in the US too, with government help don't forget.
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Post by Gabz »

I frequent the ChargePoint fast charger at Swinburne Uni Hawthorn here in Melbourne located just 4kms from my work. I sometimes use the Morland fast charger but that is now only free for 40mins ever 24hours. Then $3.50 per 15mins after that. So if you needed it twice in a day it will cost.

I'm a beloved in using the infrastructure. I'll go a little out of my way to plug in just to support it.
Read more: http://ozleaf.proboards.com/thread/219/ ... z2psBnV9yn
Last edited by Gabz on Thu, 09 Jan 2014, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
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