New battery technology?

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Thalass
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New battery technology?

Post by Thalass » Mon, 12 Mar 2012, 03:11

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/03/new-e ... alve-cost/

It sounds interesting, but i guess we'll have to wait and see how it pans out. Anyone else heard about these?

I'm sure LiFePO4 will have to do for now haha
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New battery technology?

Post by coulomb » Mon, 12 Mar 2012, 04:01

Thalass wrote: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/03/new-e ... alve-cost/

Anyone else heard about these?

There have been several posts on various forums about them, e.g.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=70339

The one published graph seems to show a rapid capacity fade, to less than 60% of initial capacity after ~ 500 cycles:

Image
Still, if it stays that flat, the capacity could still be higher than current cells for many a year of use.

It looks like they are limited to low discharge rates, like C/3. This is way too low for EVs, but it may be possible to parallel them with other chemistries or supercapacitors, or just use a lot of them. They are about 4x more dense than current cells, though that rapidly reduces.

So it shows some promise, but it will be much more impressive if and when they can get the cycle life issues sorted out.
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New battery technology?

Post by antiscab » Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 01:15

it all depends upon price,

as long as the power density is high enough, you would just have to put up with 4x as much range Image
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New battery technology?

Post by unheardofinstruments » Sat, 07 Jul 2012, 07:56

not for lack of solutions are we in this bind...
A123 update,
http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-ion- ... nology.htm

Yet supercapacitors might beat the batteries yet according to Maxwell and their barium titinate caps,

The ultra battery is in testing phase in Japan and the USA which promises ten times the life of any given chemistry by using an inbuilt supercap/ultracap system developed in Australia by the solar racing division of CSIRO (the govt. research wing), when I spoke with the scientists they said about 2-3 years away form hitting the market

Zn and Mg Air batteries look to be getting better soon as now we can make ionic/salt electrolytes cheaper to manufacture and that dont evaporate
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/42 ... batteries/

and http://www.technologyreview.com/news/41 ... through/2/

and here cycling improvements, http://www.technologyreview.com/news/42 ... ry/lithium air batteries;http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... zlers.html

structural plastic batterieshttp://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/the-big- ... 92.article

these guys in England are using lithium titinate batteries already http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/Li ... ology.html

anyone found anything else promising? Having trouble deciding what to plan for when it comes time to invest in a battery pack!
...and that is just batteries, similar jumps in recyclability of battery compounds, biofuel production, solar cell efficiency, fuel cell technology, wind power, flywheels floating on magnetic bearings in a vacuum, new motor designs, flux switching etc are all in the near future it seems and the military has a lot of interest in EV tech especially in the US, things are moving in every direction
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New battery technology?

Post by antiscab » Sat, 07 Jul 2012, 15:25

unheardofinstruments wrote: The ultra battery is in testing phase in Japan and the USA which promises ten times the life of any given chemistry by using an inbuilt supercap/ultracap system developed in Australia by the solar racing division of CSIRO (the govt. research wing), when I spoke with the scientists they said about 2-3 years away form hitting the market


That news is relatively ancient - for instance the CSIRO supercap/battery project was abandoned around 3 years ago, mainly because using the space and mass originally occupied by the super caps for more battery produced a longer lasting battery, that cost less and had a higher power density (battery technology has left the super caps behind)

the air batteries are interesting for infrequent long range travel, but not overly practical for everyday use

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New battery technology?

Post by Simon » Sat, 07 Jul 2012, 17:06

Not a new battery, but the improved CALB CA cells. Better cold weather performance, longer cycle life and higher discharge rates.
http://blog.evtv.me/2012/06/battery-jump-shift/

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New battery technology?

Post by unheardofinstruments » Tue, 05 Feb 2013, 05:09

supercapacitors made of graphene, looks like absolutely everything will be made of the stuff soon.

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New battery technology?

Post by unheardofinstruments » Tue, 05 Feb 2013, 05:59


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New battery technology?

Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 05 Feb 2013, 18:49

unheardofinstruments wrote: http://vimeo.com/51873011


i saw this vid clip somewhere about 6 months ago but it didnt have the GE branding on it

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New battery technology?

Post by BigMouse » Tue, 05 Feb 2013, 20:16

Adverse Effects wrote:
unheardofinstruments wrote: http://vimeo.com/51873011


i saw this vid clip somewhere about 6 months ago but it didnt have the GE branding on it
The branding is there for the competition which this clip was a finalist in, not associated with the technology being developed. It's on all the videos that were submitted for that comp.

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New battery technology?

Post by unheardofinstruments » Fri, 08 Feb 2013, 04:59

http://www.battery-solutions.basf.com/p ... ons/en_GB/

details various BASF work

this is a good overview of a few of the different approaches being worked on;

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/ne ... hs#slide-1

The ultra battery by CSIRO is licenced to an american and a japanese firm and according to the guy bruce I talked with at CSIRO is a few years away still as they work out their mass production system, they work well and have a very long lifetime as the caps take the brunt of the charging and discharging peaks letting the batteries trickle charge them. I think a lot of the other ones are still a lot further out so they may get a market chunk for a while. With how much is going on it must be a high risk investment to even try getting a new system out.

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New battery technology?

Post by Richo » Fri, 08 Feb 2013, 21:01

Or you can go get a cap now and shove it on a battery yourself.

It was a few years away a few years ago.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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New battery technology?

Post by acmotor » Sat, 09 Feb 2013, 06:09

I must have missed the point with the CSIRO ultra battery.

It doesn't make sense to put an ultra cap in parallel with a battery as an energy storage.
An ultra cap needs to be cycled from zero to its max working voltage to achieve max energy storage otherwise you are wasting the cap. Unlike a chemical battery that typically is operated over a limited voltage range, say 2.5 to 3.4 for a LiFePO4.

The argument for smoothing out some charge/discharge with the cap just doesn't make a Pb cell operate without Peukert or achieve Lithium like energy density does it ?
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New battery technology?

Post by woody » Mon, 11 Feb 2013, 02:45

More of the energy is in the top of a capacitors voltage, I.E. 7/16th of the energy is in the top 1/4 of the voltage - so it's not as bad as it seems.

But for short range EV use, it doesn't make sense, since the weight is still horrible and we are discharging at 1C or more average...
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New battery technology?

Post by Richo » Mon, 11 Feb 2013, 20:58

Sure waste the cap.
It's big waste putting a cap in a Pb battery anyway.
Battery goes flat cap is useless.
At least if you have them seperate you get to keep the cap.
Pb cycles 1,000 (perhaps as an ultraBatt) - Cap cycles 1,000,000
So wasted 999,000 cycles.

Unless the cap price seriously drops it's all a complete waste.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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New battery technology?

Post by unheardofinstruments » Tue, 12 Feb 2013, 02:25

I may be wrong but my understanding of it was that supercapacitors / ultracapacitors can store enough charge to take care of peaks/transients and allow the battery to be used at much lower discharge rates and more continuously which lengthens the life of the battery significantly, CSIRO had worked out some way of regulating it internally which was the clever bit that was sold to the US and Japanese manufacturers to use with Lithium chemistries.
Obviously the buck converter output under even severe regeneration could be buffered much better as well using the caps to gobble up the amps nice and quickly even at 15C without heating up the batteries.
At the moment the advantages by cost and weight make it only viable/used mostly for buses and taxis due to the high charging rates and lots of stop starts. This looks to be about to change as new dielectrics appear from several different substrates including graphene.
I was told the biggest problem was the need for bulky heavy electronics to manage the large capacitor racks between regen, drive and charging added in as well it isn't worth the payload unless you have a 6000Lb plus vehicle.
I find a cap bank a scary concept. Imagine in a short situation, nothing compares to capacitors for packing a wallop.
The other bonus was less sag at high amps as suffered by lead battery users.
I wondered if a bonnet made of tinfoil and styrofoam could hold an appreciable amount of charge...it would work out cheap and light and could be encased in a fiberglass layer - but probably a discharge and fire hazard in a crash. I have a cap bank but I am not sure what to do with it, I envisioned it being a kind of buffer between the batteries, the generator and regen in the range extending trailer but some sort of custom switchmode IGBT electronic beast would have to be `in charge' of it which doesn't seem to exist as far as I can tell although I had been offered help to make one.

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New battery technology?

Post by coulomb » Tue, 12 Feb 2013, 03:05

unheardofinstruments wrote: I wondered if a bonnet made of tinfoil and styrofoam could hold an appreciable amount of charge...

Err, no. You'd get hundreds of picofarads from that; you need tens of farads. So it would be about 11 orders of magnitude too small in capacitance.

For a parallel plate capacitor, capacitance C = epsilon.A/d where epsilon is the dielectric constant, A is the area, and d is the distance between the plates. The secret to supercaps is getting d really really small, and A really really large, by using various techniques involving sponge-like formations and ultra thin films. A sheet of styrofoam isn't going to cut it.

It's also tricky getting the current handling ability up high. For example, aluminium foil is unlikely to handle even 20 A, depending on the width. You have to have lots of paths in parallel, and ensure that the current shares fairly evenly, so as not to have hot spots.

As far as I know, there are no practical DIY supercapacitor designs.

[ Edit: 5 orders of magnitude -> 11. Just a wee mistake Image ]
[ Edit 2: ok, maybe you'd get nanofarads, so you're "only" 10 orders of magnitude (a factor of 10 billion) short. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 11 Feb 2013, 16:10, edited 1 time in total.
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New battery technology?

Post by Richo » Tue, 12 Feb 2013, 20:43

Even if you add a converter for the cap to use more of the cap it increases the cost again making even less worthwhile.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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New battery technology?

Post by unheardofinstruments » Mon, 15 Apr 2013, 02:26

Silicone/graphene anodes
3x the storage

http://www.proedgewire.com/graphite-gra ... akthrough/

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New battery technology?

Post by unheardofinstruments » Mon, 15 Apr 2013, 02:38


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New battery technology?

Post by Richo » Mon, 15 Apr 2013, 07:21

Well at least they got around to making a web site in the last 6 months.
http://www.clbattery.com/#!
They claim to release the "GEN3" battery to the US market in 2014.

And here is the paper on the "photothermally reduced graphine" as an anode for batteries.
http://homepages.rpi.edu/~koratn/resour ... snano4.pdf

There is a long way from small pieces in a lab to a production item so my vote is on the "GEN3" battery being first.

Meanwhile I have already bought some new ultracaps that are slightly cheaper and slightly better.
But still about $2k for a full pack for a small eV for improved regen and accelleration.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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