Electric Mororcycle has officially begun!!!

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
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mattW
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Electric Mororcycle has officially begun!!!

Post by mattW » Wed, 28 May 2008, 02:21

Today was a significant day. After a lot of planning and budget analysis and patient waiting I have officially begun my Electric Motorcycle conversion with the purchase of this Suzuki GSXR400. Its got an aluminium frame, plenty of room for batteries and all the running gear sans working motor. Now I can measure everything up and start ordering my parts from zeva/kelly. Very exciting!

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Post by moemoke » Wed, 28 May 2008, 03:37

What are the details of your build Matt, motor, batteries etc. I guess in a motobike you have to have fewer batteries so that limits your voltage and your range, what do you hope to get out of it speed and range wise?

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Post by mattW » Wed, 28 May 2008, 04:32

I'm going with a Mars ME0709 72V PM motor, Kelly 72V 300A controller with regen, 60Ah thundersky batteries, Zivan charger. I'm hoping to get a top speed of around 100km/h and a range of 60-80km. Budget is ~$7-8k

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Post by Thalass » Wed, 28 May 2008, 05:26

Awesome! I like that style of bike, though I hope you can make it look a bit better than the lead-sled blockish bikes I've seen around.

I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.

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Post by HAS E-motorsport » Fri, 13 Jun 2008, 08:31

If you want to get a pretty good estimate of your top speed go to www.electricmotorsport.com and lock under sprockets, this calculator is pretty accurate, also www.evalbum.com, to see what other speeds other motorbikes with the same configuration do.
One more thing the word is that thundersky lith batts are not very good , i mean there okay but alot of other people who converted to this type of battery did not kind of get the range they where expecting and articles talking about this battery state that customers of this battery are funding a very expensive experiment. I would think about it over because it is costly.     

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Post by HAS E-motorsport » Fri, 13 Jun 2008, 08:52

if your tires are considerably large, you will get over 100kmh, because i am pretty sure the motor is PM DC so at 48V the rpm will be around 2500rpm and at 72V it will be around the 3400rpm which will get you around 120kmh. but when you do the conversion on electricmotorsport.com do not get excited when you put your current sprocket size and get a result of lets say 180kmh because that will not happen, you will be lugging the motor at low speed and high, so if your sprocket dimensions current are 17 driven and 55 rear DO NOT connect the motor and ride with this size it will damage it within 20km and you will notice the performance will be crappy, the ratio should be around 6:1 reduction if not there will be no efficiency and if you attempt to go up the slightest hill it will struggle.      

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 13 Jun 2008, 19:21

re thunderskys,
I use thundersky lfp40 on my bike (48v pack), and they meet specification.
their voltage under load is closer to 3vpc though, so if your looking for 72 under load instead of 72v nominal, you need 24cells.

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Post by mattW » Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 01:26

Hey matt what's the max current you can pull out of your 40Ahs? I'm hoping to meet the motor spec of 300A burst with my 60Ah batteries (5C) but I'm not sure if they'll do it healthily.

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 10:10

as far as doing it healthy, i would say so, rod dilkes pulls 450A out of his 90AH (also 5C) pretty regularly in his conversion. his pack is now a year old and going strong.

Most i have pulled out of my pack is 250A (just over 6C) and it sagged to 2vpc.
The thundersky batteries seem to be pretty consistent as far as volage sag goes, 0.2v per 1C of current.
so at 250A my pack sagged from 3.2v to 2v, at 70A it sags to 2.7v.
rob masons old 200AH packs in his mustang fall to 2.6vpc at 600A (3C).
the new 200AH pack in his triton ute fall to 1.7vpc at 1600A (8C)

Those are the packs i have seen in person.

Id doubt your bike would pull 300A continuous, at 60kmh, mine pulls 40-50A@58v (i also have a yesa booster pack in series with the thunderskys in case you were wondering).

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Post by mattW » Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 18:36

That's good to hear, that was my major worry about the batteries. Not that I will be pulling 300A very often but I'm sure every once in a while it would be good to be able to disprove the slow EV myth with a burst of acceleration at 300A, If I've worked it out right it should take around 100A continuous @100km/h which will be my top speed. The other 200 are just for acceleration Image

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Post by HAS E-motorsport » Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 19:13

This what i have read and what ev-converts in the US said, plus i believe they are to expensive still, rather buy a gas-motorbike that has lot more power and range for a lot cheaper. my electric motorcycle is around $4000 so its not to bad.

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Post by HAS E-motorsport » Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 19:19

also you said you have 48V so do you have an electric motorbike?

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 20:06

i do, although its more of a moped than a bike, heres the evablum page:
http://www.evalbum.com/1499
its top speed is somewhere between 60-70 depending on conditions
its an emax sport that i upgraded to lithiums and cranked up the voltage and power.

what motorbike do you have?

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Post by antiscab » Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 20:23

oh, dw, i saw the other thread. nice setup

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Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 01:00

I agree it is a nice setup you have planned.

However I was just reading your blog.
What "250cc performance" do you think you will get?

I was looking at a Ninja250 which does over 600Nm at the wheels in first gear.
So a Mars@300A is about 33Nm so a gear ratio of 18.2:1 gives you the same performance.
However at 72V this is about 4400RPM which is 27km/hr.

Lets say you geared the Mars at 5000RPM to get 100km/hr
Gear ratio about 5.6:1
33Nm@300A is about 185Nm at the wheels.
less than 30% performance of a 250cc.

And it gets worse for drive train losses, wind resistance, rolling resistance etc.

It will be a good eV motorbike but I would hardly say it will have 250cc performance.

Make sure you take lots of pics for your blog!

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Post by zeva » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 01:30

Richo: I think you're comparing apples and oranges, the power curve of an electric is so vastly different to a petrol engine, peak torque is at zero rpm instead of 8200rpm (for the Ninja 250R).

Maximum power for the Ninja 250R's engine is 24kW @ 11000rpm. Maximum power for the Mars is about 20kW at 2000rpm - and more importantly the power curve is a lot flatter.

I'll be very interested to see how this conversion goes, as I've been tempted to do something similar myself. I know a bunch of people with 250cc motorbikes so once Matt's electric is done we can find out which is quicker Image
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Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 01:53

Don't think so.
We could look at it from another perspective.

Lets say he could get 185Nm at the back wheel continuous up to 100km/hr.
This is a force of just over 600N at the wheel.
Taking into account the bike + rider this is an acceleration of 2.63m/s^2.
So to get to 100km/hr this would be about 10.6sec.

Now compare a GPX250 0-100km/hr of 5.75sec.

I don't need to know the power curves to see who is going to win.

Even still I think it is a good conversion and will prob be one of the better one around.


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Post by zeva » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 02:41

Where did the figure of 33Nm @ 300A come from? The torque constant of the ME0709 is 0.20 Nm/A (http://www.zeva.com.au/media/Mars_ME0709.png) so at 300A it'll put out ~60Nm of torque -> 1090N at the wheel -> 4.78m/s^2 -> 0-100 in 5.81s.

Of course this is neglecting (a) transmission losses and (b) the likelihood that 300A wouldn't be sustainable up to 100km/h due to back EMF etc..

But then I submit to you that very few riders would be able to get a GPX250 to 100km/h in close to 5.75 seconds, launch control and shift points are so critical.. Problems you wouldn't have with a single speed electric. I think it's in there with a chance..!
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Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 03:19

Now I agree.
It's that old data I have again.
I must delete those old power curve sheets I have. (0.11Nm/A)
Sorry. Image

So Matt looks like u r on a winner!Image

So the real question is now do I nag my wife til she gives in or do I buy it without telling her Image

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Post by antiscab » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 05:47

haha if she calls u up on it, remind her how much she paid for fuel last year:P

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Post by mattW » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 05:56

Well, I'm happy with those performance guesstimates, I hoping to gear for 100km/hr and see how I go. I was just going for similar to a 250CC commuter bike, but if I can keep up with a Ninja R version I'd be pretty happy. There are a bunch of photo's here.

So far with the suppliers I have sought out the total build price looks like about $8200 including sprockets and engineering for rego.

Anyone know where I could get a Zivan NG3 for a decent price? EV power used to have them for ~$1000 but they aren't on the website anymore. Or is there an alternative suitable charger for lithiums at 72V that will fit on board?

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Post by antiscab » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 05:59

you could use 2x36v20A chargers from kipoint on ebay.
just connect a string on 12 to each charger.
itll cost you about $500 delivered. just a thought

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Post by mattW » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 06:16

Do you have a link? I can't find them, are they suitable for LifePo4?

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Post by antiscab » Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 06:37

seems i was mistaken, they only do 12v, 24v and 48v.
heres a link for a 24v charger:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Lead-Acid-Batter ... dZViewItem

they have a shop and sell chargers of various sizes.

i use their 10A 48V charger for my pack of 15 cells, its well built.
Theyre designed to be lead acid chargers, but are fine with lithium, as long as the end of charge voltage is about right.
as an end of charge voltage, you are looking for between 3.8 and 4vpc.

for my setup of 15 cells, the 59v end of charge is about 3.93vpc, so within the range.

you could try e-crazyman:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Battery-Charger- ... dZViewItem
though he tends to do smaller chargers.
I bought the chargers for my car from him (288v2.5A made up of 6x48v 2.5A chargers), it will be a lethargic charge, depends how fast you need.

you could also go to 96v and set a 72v max for the motor. this would let you use 2x48v20A chargers from kipoint, although that has its own problems. (space and weight).

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Post by mattW » Thu, 19 Jun 2008, 09:12

Last edited by mattW on Wed, 18 Jun 2008, 23:16, edited 1 time in total.

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