Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
francisco.shi
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by francisco.shi »

There are plenty of Hyper9 motors around. They seem to have a fey funny things that makes me question how good they are. Have you considered a Nissan Leaf motor?
A friend is using one for a conversion and he has it running using CAN bus.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by francisco.shi »

The problems I see with Hyper9 are:
1)not liquid cooled.
2)exposed terminals (not water proof)
3)the back EMF seems very strange and not very confident it is a good thing.
Every other PMSM I have ever measured has a pretty nice sine wave output. Even RC motors have pretty smooth waveforms even if they are not sinusoidal (the worse I have seen are flattened sine) but they are still fairly smooth and symmetric.
4)lower voltage. This may not be a big problem but if you run of 365v you are more likely to find OEM parts that will work straight up (like air conditioning compressors, chargers and DC-DC converters) but it may be an advantage to work with lower voltage.
Originally I was trying to run of 500v but found out that most OEM parts run from 320 to 450v. I am using an OEM 7kw charger with built in 2kw DC-DC converter and is liquid cooled.
I consider liquid cooling important from the point of view of not having to have a fan in a place that may not be very clean (engine bay)
I consider what would happen if you drive thru some water. Not a river crossing just driving in the rain.
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brendon_m
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by brendon_m »

jonescg wrote: Sat, 13 Mar 2021, 22:21 Those values are pretty good, and despite the poor aerodynamics of the car, the low mass helps.
The Prelude matches those efficiencies almost perfectly.
We won't speak of the (un)aerodynamic features and low mass of my Moke.

george wrote: Sat, 13 Mar 2021, 22:12 Running through Brendon's calculator websites, particularly that second one
Not mine personally, I just stumbled across them. If I remember correctly I think I actually found one on @francisco.shis build log
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by george »

Just got back from a short holiday in Geraldton. Saw a Kona on the way back down, they looked like they were having fun.

I can see a "Nissan Leaf ZE1 EM57 Electric Motor" on eBay for around a bit under $7k. Seems to be a very high performance motor. I like the idea of recycling an existing motor, this fits well with my model of sustainability. It looks bulky, but on closer inspection a lot of that space is the fast charger. Would be awesome to integrate that into the build too... Is this a good buy? @jonescg and @francisco.shi, you've both emphasised the importance of a good motor.

As a side note, it seems that most non OEM parts are typically 70-200V, and the OEM parts are, as you say, around 320-450V.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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If you are not looking for blistering speeds I think a Nissan Leaf motor will be a good choice. I have a friend who has one running so getting it to work should not be a problem and we should have a VCU (vehicle control unit) that will drive the motor from pedal input and mannage the rest of the car. It all works via CAN bus which could be good or bad depending on your expertise. I don't know how much they go for. One good thing about the leaf motor/inverter is that I think the AC charger and maybe the DC-DC converter is built into the inverter so it is bulkier but also very convenient and I think you can separate the motor and the inverter and put them in different locations.
As for the voltage I think non OEM parts are probably upgraded fork lift motors/inverters which started life as 48v systems. Most use MOSFETS which are more effecient at low voltages (below 200v) and making 360v with lead acid would be problematic.
400v means you would use 600v devices which are very common in industrial VFDs so if I was an OEM I would go to an industrial VFD manufacturer and ask for a solution. If I was an industrial VFD manufacturer I would offer either a 560v or 360v solution (common bus voltages) if i was building the battery I would pick 360 because it needs less series cells. So that is how I think we got 96S for most EVs.
Also non OEM parts are for hobbyist who probably do not know enough about high voltage design.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by brendon_m »

george wrote: Sun, 21 Mar 2021, 23:33
I can see a "Nissan Leaf ZE1 EM57 Electric Motor" on eBay for around a bit under $7k.
That seems a bit high to me, but you are paying an ebay AND isolated Perth premium.
Might be an idea to talk to someone like @Leonford at lithium power (https://www.lithium-power.com.au/?gclid ... xsEALw_wcB). They import batteries from wrecked EVs and sell them all the time so they may have contacts and the ability to import a motor stack for you. I don't know whether it'll work out cheaper or not but it can't hurt to ask.
Might also pay to look at japanese 'half cut' importers in general.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by george »

I DO like the idea of having everything running over CAN, and it would be so awesome to have that fast charger in-built.

One concern with these motors is the gear ratio. The Leaf motor maxes out at just below 10 000 rpm, which would be 232 km/h on 0.668 m (26.3 inch) tyres with a 4.09 diff gear ratio and a 1.32 transfer case ratio (high). I think I need to do a reduction to bring that down to something more natural. The Nissan Leaf's top speed is around 145 km/h.

If I ditched the option for 4WD, I could run the Jimny permanently in low range (2.145 ratio), which would provide a top speed of 143, which would be pretty good I think. But I really want to be able to use all four wheels when I want to! Does anyone have any advice?

@brendon_m, thanks for the tip. If I go with this option, I'll call around as you suggest.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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You have two options.
1) leave the original gear box and use it as a speed reducer. Advantage is that it is easy and probably the cheapest option and you have the option of multiple speeds if you need to. 2nd gear is roughly what you need for on road use. 1st is close to what you would need for low range.
2) get another transfer case and put it inline and use the low range setting as a speed reducer. The advantage is that it is much smaller and neater. The disadvantage is you need to mess around a lot and make a new case for the gears but you end up with a very neat solution. I did this for the Pajero motors mainly because I could not keep the original transmission.
3) get two Nissan Leaf complete drive trains and have independent front and rear suspension and two motors. It will also be stupidly fast and you won't need low range.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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george wrote: Mon, 22 Mar 2021, 09:30 If I ditched the option for 4WD, I could run the Jimny permanently in low range (2.145 ratio), which would provide a top speed of 143, which would be pretty good I think. But I really want to be able to use all four wheels when I want to! Does anyone have any advice
Manual lock free wheeling hubs on the front and just let the front prop shaft spin
Noise maybe an issue and spinning the transfer case in low range at 10000rpm...
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by T1 Terry »

Even though the Leaf motor will spin to 10,000rpm, it doesn't have to be spun at its maximum capable rpm. If the Leaf tops out at 145km/h @ 10,000 rpm then 5,000rpm must represent around 70km/h in the Leaf and roughly 115km/h in the Suzuki Jimny in 2WD or high range 4WD. That way you still have lots of variation and torque in low range 4WD for off road work. The standard ICE powered Jimny was never considered to be a bitumen burner, so at a limited 50% max rpm in road trim would still out perform the ICE version .... and can you picture the looks on the faces as you cruise past people on the freeway .... priceless in the extended range Prius with the extra 10kWh battery in the spare wheel well, pulling out and passing a B double or triple really gets the looks :lol:

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george
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by george »

1) I have an auto, so there's no manual transmission to keep.
2) I thought of this, but I was thinking along @brendon_m's lines of 10000 rpm through the case being potentially problematic. Maybe it would be fine. What does your Pajero sound like?
3) Completely insane and awesome. I would consider this if I had more money to splash around. Having said that, this would free up more space for batteries... I was very jealous of all the space you made for your massive battery box.

Manual lock hubs are a nice solution, but yeah, depends on the noise/wear on the transfer case.

@T1 Terry, true, you're right, I could just ignore this entirely. My numbers match yours: 5000 rpm would give around 115 km/h. According to these guys (https://www.automobile-catalog.com/curv ... eaf_g.html) the max torque part of the curve only ends at around 3250 rpm. I did some naive calculations that didn't include air resistance, and I think I could realistically anticipate a 0-100 time of around 10 seconds. This is totally acceptable. I think I'm going to keep it simple here.

I might ask around about motor prices then.

The other problem here is that 96S that I'm going to need. I'm going to need to choose my cells carefully. I may end up copying your cell choice @francisco.shi, Chris used the same ones I think for his first Prelude battery attempt. I'm sure there are good reasons you all chose them. I'm thinking of also trying to emulate your cell cooling technique, with the pipes running through the pack and cooling the pouch tabs.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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I haven't been able to spin up the gea4boxes to 10krpm under load and in a driving car. At 40kph (about 3krpm) you can not hear the gears when the car goes past but can hear them inside the car. Having said that I have only tested it with an empty battery box (which ends up acting as a sound box in a gitar) and on the rolling chassis which has lots of missing bits so I am not sure how much quieter it will he once it is assembled but it is still way quieter than the petrol engine. One thinkg you need to remember is that on a manual gearbox 1st gear is spining at 15krpm when the car is doing 100kph.
On another note the MG has a winding noise coming out of the gears but you only notice it because everything else is so quiet. If you start taking you don't hear it anymore. I am putting a fair bit of emphasis on noise so I will try to add some noise deadening everywhere including the inside of the doors.
The cells I used are not the same as the prelude ones. The ones I used have the tabs on opposite sides of the cells 2hich makes it very convenient to wire them up but as far as I know the smallest you can get is 60Ah so you either have 21 or 42 kWh. Also the Nissan inverter will run of lower voltage. I am not sure what the lowest voltage is so you may be able to get away with less series cells.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by george »

A "silent" 4WD will be so awesome. OK, noted with regards to rpm and noise. I think I'm still going to avoid the complexity, which I don't feel I need for my low levels of experience.

OK, I guess I need to do some thinking about cells before I pull any triggers on buying motors. I'm really happy with using the Leaf motor now, I feel it's the right choice.

I think I saw a video where the Nissan motor was able to spin with about 186V, so that would be an absolute minimum. Any voltage sag and it would presumably cut out. So, I guess somewhere between 250 V and 360 V would be about right. I'll try to do a mini comparison between the different types that have been used on member's machines.

EDIT: I don't think these voltages are correct. See my next post.
Last edited by george on Tue, 23 Mar 2021, 12:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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I'm still leaning towards the LTO cells for my eventual EV build or upgrade of the Prius extended range battery where I'm lokking at replacing the NiMh 6Ah traction battery with 55Ah LTO cells. They are not as energy dense, but they can handle 10CA discharge and recharge so great for supplying big current and accepting good regen as well as fast charging from a DC recharge station with no long term effects on cycle life. None of the other lithium chemistries can claim this, nor do they have the long cycle life.
Because they are sealed cylindrical cells, I'm looking at temperature stabilisation by flooding the battery enclosure with one of the E Fluids that has the boiling point that suits best the vapour change point to hold the max temp I want the cells to peak at ..... then a compressor and radiator much like an airconditioner unit to compress the now vaporised E Fluid and cool it so it returns to a liquid.
A bit more jiggery pockey involved, like a vacuum on the out flow so the vapour point is lowered and there is no pressure build up problem and at worst if there is a slight leak, a catch tray and sump pump for when it is parked up and an air separation storage tank for any air that gets drawn in when it is under vacuum ......
All sound good in my head and at the end of my one finger typing, yet to get it to actual reality :lol:

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francisco.shi
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by francisco.shi »

For the pack voltage to run the leaf motor you need to consider the discharged state of the pack to be 186v or higher so you can use the whole battery.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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For the prius battery upgrade any chemistry will do if you are going to use 55Ah cells. The maximum current in or out to the prius battery is 75A. So that would be 1.5C peak. I don't even think you will need cooling.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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francisco.shi wrote: Tue, 23 Mar 2021, 09:38 For the prius battery upgrade any chemistry will do if you are going to use 55Ah cells. The maximum current in or out to the prius battery is 75A. So that would be 1.5C peak. I don't even think you will need cooling.
The fan on the traction pack screams when worked hard, I'd love to get rid of that noise as well as the stink from escaping electrolyte from the 76 x 40Ah GBS cells that make up the extended range battery in the spare wheel well ... i'll start another topic to avoid dragging George's topic too far off topic.

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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by george »

I made an error, it's probably 240V minimum and 400V maximum (found in a Youtube comment on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhMhxcjdAh8, so may not be accurate). If I understand correctly, to use this inverter, you are basically set at a 96S?P arrangement.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by jonescg »

96 series is pretty standard. Lots of equipment made to suit that voltage, like chargers, DCDC converters and aircon compressors.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by seth2012 »

Hey

just thought I would chime in from a existing petrol jimny owner standpoint and offer a few suggestions on your transfer case and other gearing issues.
later models all came with a 4.3 diff ratio, so you get an immediate reduction there, the diff centres are compatible (have to cut a very small notch in the front housing to get it in) and the current ratio you have is getting rare now so should sell second hand (especially the rear, blew mine out a few months ago and cost $800 in parts to get it going again, no spares on the eastern seaboard). the other option you have are transfer case reduction gears. there are options for the jimny case already or you could jump to the pre 1995 sierra case with an adapter kit, it really is bolt in, even the 4wd selector fits the jimny plug, the cases are starting to get a little difficult to find but the highest gear set option available for these and the reductions are active in high range aswell it is a 1.7:1 in high range and 6.5 to 1 in low (incredible offroad). I had a set of 4.9 ratios fitted to my jimny and in with far larger tyres (235/75/R15) on it was revving the motor at 4250RPM at 100 km/hr, low range at same RPM gave approx 60KM/HR with the same tyres, guessing this is also relevent as 5th gear on the gearbox is 1:1 on jimny.

knowing the internals of the 2 transfer cases I would steer towards sierra, gear driven and stronger and the path of the drive/torque in low range is almost exactly the same as the high range. Jimny uses a chain drive so potentially more efficient but for low range runs a set of planetary gears and I'm unsure how they would go long term running full time. the sierra case also has many mods available to use 2wd in low range and any other number of combinations. removing the vacuum hubs isn't a bad option as you are loosing a vacuum source already, you can buy an adapter kit to fit sierra hubs or you can pick up a set of AVM free wheel hubs

keenly watching where you go with this, I have EV plans aswell, or more of a hybrid really, picked up a 98 jimny with a clean title and a blown motor for cheap that is currently killing a patch of lawn in my back yard.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by george »

Hey Seth, thanks for your comments!

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away on holiday. Time to earn money again, the batteries won't buy themselves.

Looks like I can consider the diff and transfer upgrades later on if I don't get the torque I need. My back of the envelope calcs indicate that I should be fine to begin with, but larger tyres may present some problems.

For those that are interested, this guy http://www.jeffsprojects.com/the-new-project/ is doing something similar with a Merc. He's keeping his transmission to get a ratio of 6.825:1, as opposed to my planned 5.4:1. Mine will definitely will end up being a little tall, but that's OK for now, and according to @seth2012, I could be getting around 8.33:1 with 4.9 diffs and a 1.7 Sierra case in high range. Time to move on.

Now, I think if I can prove to myself that:
1) The Leaf motor will fit
2) The Leaf motor can be mounted
3) I have a rough design for the adapter between the motor and transfer case
then I'll be ready to start tearing it apart and buying that motor! I can't wait to get started.
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by jonescg »

George, let me know if you're interested in batteries, as I'll be building some modules out of 21700 format cells and they're pretty energy dense. In the end they'll be a 24s20p waterproof sealed unit weighing about 35 kg, 100 V DC fully charged and about 85 Ah, but if you want to build your own packs you can just go in on a group buy of cells.
INR21700P42A-V4-80092.pdf
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

Post by george »

I would be so keen, but I can't really justify buying batteries so far in advance. I think I want to stick with your advice and build the adapter/motor/inverter into the car first, and then see what space and weight I have left for cells.

How many packs are you thinking of making? Is there a thread for this design/buy?
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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This pack talk is sounding like a new topic which could grow legs... @jonescg can you share some more info on the plans. I'm interested, although also looking at some used Tesla packs. Are you looking at pack cooling?
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Re: Planned Suzuki Jimny conversion

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@jonescg
Maybe should add a new heading for battery builds.
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