More Li batteries

How do you store and manage your electricity?
Nevilleh
Senior Member
Posts: 773
Joined: Thu, 15 Jan 2009, 18:09
Real Name: Neville Harlick
Location: Tauranga NZ

More Li batteries

Post by Nevilleh »

Has anyone ever heard of this supplier? They are offering 50 Ahr cells at around $US70. I have bought TS 40 AHr ones at $US60 each direct from TS (plus shipping costs).
Nevilleh
Senior Member
Posts: 773
Joined: Thu, 15 Jan 2009, 18:09
Real Name: Neville Harlick
Location: Tauranga NZ

More Li batteries

Post by Nevilleh »

Might be good if I include the link:
http://hipower.en.ecplaza.net/1.asp
User avatar
evric
Site Admin
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun, 20 Jul 2008, 01:57
Real Name: Eric
Location: Adelaide SA
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by evric »

Nevilleh, One of the 'Post Options' is "Edit Post"...this saves creating a new post.
Last edited by evric on Wed, 04 Feb 2009, 12:30, edited 1 time in total.
Prius Plug-in Conversion: http://www.evplus.com.au ...Holden Barina EV: http://www.evric.kestar.com.au
User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3733
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by Johny »

No, haven't seen this one yet but I just sent an enquiry after seeing your post. They quote 3C discharge rate which I think is well under what TS can do.
I have asked a price on a total of 624 Volt, 20Ah (for AC conversion). Probably composed of 13 of 48V packs.
I'll post here when I get an answer.

antiscab
Senior Member
Posts: 2700
Joined: Mon, 26 Nov 2007, 05:39
Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

More Li batteries

Post by antiscab »

ive heard of them.
i saw their cells on ebay a little while ago.

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells
Nevilleh
Senior Member
Posts: 773
Joined: Thu, 15 Jan 2009, 18:09
Real Name: Neville Harlick
Location: Tauranga NZ

More Li batteries

Post by Nevilleh »

Thanks for the note about "edit post". Makes one look a little less stupid if one uses it!
The email contact I have been dealing with is:
"alex" <hihon03@chinabatteries.net>
and he is very keen to sell me something.
I noticed their max rating was 3C (cell esr <4 milliohms) and they are offering me a 150Ahr pack (3 cells in parallel) which he claims will supply 500A. A 40 cell x 3 pack was quoted at $US8400. He also claims they match the cells closely in such a pack.
A "balancing charger with BMS" supplying 128V/25A was quoted at $US808.
milo0105
Noobie
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 01:38
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by milo0105 »

Hipower is a good onw
User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

More Li batteries

Post by Richo »

I'm sure they would have more interest if they had an english web-site.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
Marcus
Noobie
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue, 10 Feb 2009, 09:19
Real Name: Marcus Faulstone
Location: Sydney
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by Marcus »

Richo wrote: I'm sure they would have more interest if they had an english web-site.


It takes a completely illogical series of clicks to get there but:

http://www.chinabatteries.net/Li-polymer.htm

The batteries shown all seem to be in the mAH range. So, I'm not too sure what to make of it... most of these chinese manufacturers seem to be in desperate need of a decent web designer. I guess the proof is in the pudding. As I understand it, most suppliers are happy to send out a sample for testing?
Last edited by Marcus on Fri, 13 Feb 2009, 07:06, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3733
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by Johny »

I actually contacted them 2 or 3 weeks ago and have had a couple of responses. I was asking about a 48V 20Ah set of packs. The price for a single 48V sample pack was US$480 (FOB so not shipped). It turned out the pack could only do 3C continuous and I really needed 5C.
(The EV pack they sell is much higher rated).

Cindy (she was the person who followed up the alibaba enquiry) tells me they are developing a 10C, 48V 20Ah pack now and they are about 2 months away (using similar cells as the EV pack). This was for the bike battery which is the closest I can find for a 20Ah pack.

As always, until someone tries them we don't know how good they are.

Edit: Corrected cell to sell.
Last edited by Johny on Mon, 30 Mar 2009, 11:08, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4316
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by coulomb »

I received an unsolicited reply from Alex today; his email had these web addresses:
http://www.chinabatteries.net and
http://www.chinahipower.com.cn

The latter is all in Chinese; the former won't load for me right now.

He sent a second email with some data in it that looked quite interesting. For example, they make 30AH cells, adn various modules. They put the "BMS" into the charger, reasoning that if the cells are balanced when charging, them they'll be close enough on discharge that you don't need BMS all the time. I'm not sure that I agree with that, and wonder what happens with regen (possibly it's fine; most of the time regen won't get you back to 100% SOC anyway).

He claims "It is very suitable for high current discharge rate occasions such as Electrical Vehicle thus have a much better performance of climbing and accelerating.", "very competitive price", "going to be the largest LiFePO4 production base in China".

In the data sheet is says "battery. Our battery can stand 3c –10c burst discharge current depending on various battery capacity ." So it sounds like 3C is the continuous rating, but up to 10C for peaks.

Edit: clickable URLs
Last edited by coulomb on Tue, 31 Mar 2009, 18:26, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
User avatar
woody
Senior Member
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 02:03
Real Name: Anthony Wood
Location: Mt Colah

More Li batteries

Post by woody »

If you're going for about 600V pack of 30Ah batteries, 3C is 90Amp = 54kW, not too exciting. 10C = 270kW, should be enough :-)

The internal resistance is worth knowing, 300 amps @ 1.5V isn't all that exciting either.

cheers,
Woody
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4316
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by coulomb »

woody wrote: If you're going for about 600V pack of 30Ah batteries, 3C is 90Amp = 54kW, not too exciting. 10C = 270kW, should be enough :-)
Well, exactly. That's the frustration with Thunder Sky cells; to get enough peak power you need enough Lithium for a quite generous range, and generous cost as well.
The internal resistance is worth knowing, 300 amps @ 1.5V isn't all that exciting either.
Good point. The only info on that is this:
"Internal resistance: for 10ah cell <15mΩ For 20ah cell <20mΩ"

Which doesn't make sense; the 20AH cell should surely have lower internal resistance.

There is a discharge curve showing a -10C discharge; the voltage plunges immediately from 3.9 (! just charged) to about 3.0, then falls to 2.0 over about 5 seconds edit: minutes. (See next post). The cell recovers immediately to 3.2v, but then (current is now -1C) falls to 2.0 volts over about 15 seconds. So does this mean you can only get away with 10C for 5 seconds, and the cell is dead after that? I'm probably misinterpreting the graph; it says "No effect to battery performance when getting back to normal recharge mode after complete discharge under 10C discharge current." Maybe that means 10C is alright as long as you recharge right away.

On the other hand, continuous 5C discharge looks much better: the voltage stays above 2.8v for 80% of the cycle, and dips only a little under 2.8v until the final plunge to 2.0v.

I don't know if you can read this URL, or if it's specific to me:
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&attid= ... tion%2Fpdf


Last edited by coulomb on Tue, 31 Mar 2009, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4316
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by coulomb »

Weber has pointed out to me that those must be minutes, not seconds. So at full charge, it takes some 5 minutes at 10C to sag to 2.0 volts. At 10C, you would expect a perfect battery to last only 6 minutes, so that's not bad at all. There is still 25% of the capacity left, as it takes 15 minutes at 1C to drain completely to 2.0 volts. I guess that's because a lot of the 10C discharge was at a lower terminal voltage, so the cell is more watt-hour conserving than amp-hour conserving. Or the plots are complete fabrication.

Some pictures from Alex; 30AH cell:
Image

48v 30AH pack:
Image
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2790
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by weber »

coulomb wrote: Weber has pointed out to me that those must be minutes, not seconds. So at full charge, it takes some 5 minutes at 10C to sag to 2.0 volts. At 10C, you would expect a perfect battery to last only 6 minutes, so that's not bad at all. There is still 25% of the capacity left, as it takes 15 minutes at 1C to drain completely to 2.0 volts. I guess that's because a lot of the 10C discharge was at a lower terminal voltage, so the cell is more watt-hour conserving than amp-hour conserving. Or the plots are complete fabrication.


Mr Coulomb! You'd better read up on "coulombic efficiency". It can never be more than 100%. Conservation of charge is a stronger condition than conservation of energy in an electrochemical cell.

The curve can be explained by the cell under test having a capacity 8% greater than its nominal capacity. I note that this is consistent with the 1C discharge curve that goes for 65 minutes.

What I find odd is that the current at the supposed 10C discharge rate is shown as 5000 mA, which implies it's only a 500 mAh cell.
Last edited by weber on Tue, 31 Mar 2009, 18:58, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2790
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by weber »

On this page
http://hipower.en.ecplaza.net/2.asp
HiPower specify that their 100 Ah cells are:
cons current : below 1C
max current : 3C
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4316
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by coulomb »

Oh, yes! If a coulomb of charge goes in, you can't get more than a coulomb of charge out. I should remember that one Image

For those that didn't or can't read that Google Document, here is a part of the QA process:
Image
Remind me not to go to that alternative medicine facility!

These are the old metal covered cells; only the prismatic cells are sold now. Perhaps the 10C test was on one of these smaller cells. It would be nice to know whether this result scales to at least the 30AH cells.

The 8% overcapacity lines up somewhat with something I read from the Finnish 500 Corollas project (E-cars Now! FAQ). They stated that lithium cells tend to lose the most capacity, about 10%, after the first year. Losses in later years are supposed to be less. The cell's capacity is supposed, according to that FAQ item, to represent the capacity at about the 1 year mark. So new cells should show something like 10% extra capacity over the nominal, rated capacity. I find it hard to believe that marketing forces won't trash that concept, somehow.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4316
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by coulomb »

weber wrote: ... HiPower specify that their 100 Ah cells are:
cons current : below 1C
max current : 3C

Oh. So somewhere between 0.5Ah and 100 Ah the continuous and peak currents drop off. It might still be useful if 300 A was the peak current limit, so a 30AH cell could still do 10C, but a 40 Ah cell could only do 7.5C. Also assuming that this is from the same "HiPower" company.

WRT the minutes, I was initially unable to see the bottom of the graph, but eventually managed to get this:

Image
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2790
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by weber »

coulomb wrote: Also assuming that this is from the same "HiPower" company.

It is. I got to that page by clicking a picture on this page.
http://hipower.en.ecplaza.net/
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
Mesuge
Groupie
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed, 05 Mar 2008, 07:37
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by Mesuge »

HiPower batteries have been used in several projects so far, there are perhaps some performance tests done at endlessphere, visforvoltage, diyelectriccar and other major sites.

In automotive, the project to watch is perhaps this Audi A2/AzureD conversion, the guy just bought 100x 50Ah HiPower cells for it (3part series as of now):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKwYMIIJP5E
ImageCzech EV Club | blog, gallery, video | http://old.elektromobily.org
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4316
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by coulomb »

The Audi A2's EVAlbum page:

http://evalbum.com/2047

Currently awaiting the motor coupler welding.

Clickable YouTube URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKwYMIIJP5E
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2790
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by weber »

When I use the EVAlbum search, on battery brand, I find one for China HiPower.
http://www.evalbum.com/2430

Summary:
11 A123
1 China HiPower
3 DeWalt
0 Headway
4 Kokam
3 Ping
0 PSI/LiFeBatt/BMI
60 Thundersky
9 Valence.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4316
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by coulomb »

Using this search:

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&o ... valbum.com

I find seven. I think people don't enter their details correctly in the album, or it's hard to make changes, or something. Or the database needs reindexing.

But the above shows that Thunder Sky is far and away the most popular lithium battery for conversions.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2790
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by weber »

The cells shown in this Porsche look exactly like China HiPower. They even have the same (bad rigid) connecting links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msScGHvI ... re=related
But the blurb says they are from Foxx Power.
http://www.foxxpower.com/Foxx%20Power%20Specs.pdf
Foxx Power claim to have developed these cells themselves, but the fancy looking website is remarkably devoid of test data.

Here's a Foxx Power eBay entry with photos showing exactly the same amateur looking battery-pack construction that you see on China HiPower web pages.
Foxx Power Ebay entry
If it wasn't for some articles about them having factories in the US with 20 or more employees I'd be guessing Foxx Power is one guy (Zane Tatum) just reselling China HiPower from his garage.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).
User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3733
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

More Li batteries

Post by Johny »

This link is English. This came from Cindy's email.
Chinapower
Post Reply