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Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 21:57
by Adverse Effects
weber wrote:
Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 13:14
Richo wrote:
Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 13:04
weber wrote:
Tue, 02 Apr 2019, 14:22
And I could paint the word "capacitor" on my cat. :)
Would you wash your cat after ...?
Well, I wouldn't want to to in-capacitate it. Ba-dum tish.
YOUR FIRED ! ! !
just like the LTO's

ROFL

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Thu, 04 Apr 2019, 09:08
by T1 Terry
Richo wrote:
Wed, 03 Apr 2019, 12:42

In anycase - back on topic - I did find a youtube video of Yinlong doing destructive tests on thier LTO battery.
Bit of a let down - no bangs, or balls of fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAUYbSDEy6I
In that video they show a cycle life test, but there are 2 different charge/discharge regimes mentioned, 2CA/2CA and 2CA/0.2CA ... I think I got that right. So which one does the graph represent? Can these cells really handle 15000 cycles with a 2CA/2CA charge discharge regime?

T1 Terry

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Thu, 04 Apr 2019, 13:10
by Richo
T1 Terry wrote:
Thu, 04 Apr 2019, 09:08
Can these cells really handle 15000 cycles with a 2CA/2CA charge discharge regime?
Well that is conservative for an LTO.
Just remember that the shelf life of the battery won't be much better than any other battery.
For av eV 4,000 cycles is plenty after that the rest go down the drain...
But as you say for a Hybrid it would be a better option.

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Fri, 05 Apr 2019, 11:09
by T1 Terry
4,000 cycles would be every day for 10yrs, but as you say, a hybrid would benefit more because they are continually high current charging and discharging. To get the 2CA would require 70 Ah capacity, so 2 x 40Ah in parallel x 110 to build a 250v nom. battery. 220 cells x $84.80 = $18,656 ..... back to buying lotto tickets me thinks.

T1 Terry

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Fri, 05 Apr 2019, 12:25
by Richo
So https://www.aliexpress.com/ has some 2.4V 40Ah LTO Yinlong back in stock.
This is the ID number: 32983251937
Works out to about AUD$70 per cell delivered.
Looks like they have already sold quite a bit in the past week.
They do mention about shipping difficulties in the description.

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Sat, 06 Apr 2019, 13:14
by BaronVonChickenPants
Good afternoon all,
Sorry for going dark on this one, I have been caught up between clarifying customs import rules and regulations, pricing negotiations, my day job and life in general.

We have an order in and all going to plan we expect to have stock in Australia, at worst, in 6 weeks.

We're just waiting on final freight and customs expenses but pricing will be better than originally expected, able to at least match AliExpress pricing as planned.

LTO Wh/Kg are not ideal for EV's unless you're building an electric bus. That's not to say you couldn't use LTO with their durability and longevity a huge incentive, but you would have far greater range for comparable weight out of LFP, etc.

They are ideal however as a replacement for Lead Acid 12v systems where Lion and LFP are a battle to match 12v systems without major engineering or where weight is not a consideration.

Our target market is predominantly Solar storage batteries but also camping and boating 12V batteries.

I will update the OP with final finally finalised pricing once we have all of the expenses in, I have decided to stop making updates to pricing based on quotes and estimates as they're too volatile.

Jordan.

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 14:32
by weber
Richo wrote:
Thu, 04 Apr 2019, 13:10
Just remember that the shelf life of the [LTO] battery won't be much better than any other battery.
Hi Richo. Can you tell us why you think that?

I've been searching, and I can find precious little about the calendar life of LTOs.

It just seemed to me that since they are considered to withstand higher temperatures, that might translate to longer life at ordinary temperatures. And I kept finding stuff about how the calendar ageing of non-LTO lithiums is dominated by growth of the SEI layer on their graphite anodes. This not only increases internal resistance as it gets thicker, but also reduces capacity by locking up lithium. And I read that the titanate anode does not have an SEI layer at all. Sure it would still have cathode ageing, but apparently that's slower.

I finally found this, a Chem Eng Degree project by one Joakim Andersson, 2017-06-13.
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/di ... TEXT01.pdf
Search on "titanate" and "LTO" within the above document. Here are the important quotes about LTO calendar ageing:

Page 12: "The great disadvantages of LTO are the low electron conductivity along with the rather extensive release of gas by-products, predominately H2, CO and CO2, during operation at high temperatures [54]. These issues have limited the use of LTO cells for large-scale applications [55]. Researchers have been trying to improve the material properties in these regards through doping or protective coatings [51]."

Page 19: "Lastly, it is worth mentioning that the main aging mechanisms are quite different for LTO-based anodes. First and foremost, no SEI formation will occur on LTO anodes due to their higher potential vs. Li/Li+ compared to graphitic anodes. For the same reason, no lithium or manganese plating will occur either. ... The main concern of LTO anode aging is instead the quite substantial production of gas at high temperatures. Still, it is commonly so that aging processes occurring at the cathode will dominate the overall aging behavior of cells with an LTO anode [53, 82, 83]."

Page 24: "As SEI formation on the anode appears to at least be the dominating aging mechanism during storage, cells with titanate-based anodes should see relatively little calendar aging as no SEI is formed on these electrodes."

"The work done on calendar aging of cells featuring LTO-based anodes suggests that these materials will vastly outperform those with graphite based anodes in terms of capacity and internal resistance retention over time."

Page 25: See the graph at the top of the page.

Page 27: "It has also been seen that aging characteristics are dependent on cell chemistry, especially so for different anode materials. LTO-based cells display superior calendar-and cycle aging compared to those featuring a graphite anode. In addition, the main aging mechanisms are very different for LTO-based cells as no SEI formation and hardly any electrolyte oxidation will occur in cells with these anodes."

Keep in mind that this is not a peer reviewed paper, but a student project. But it may be useful to try to obtain some of the LTO papers it references.

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Mon, 15 Apr 2019, 13:02
by Richo
Richo wrote:
Thu, 04 Apr 2019, 13:10
.. the shelf life of the [LTO] battery won't be much better than any other battery.
weber wrote:
Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 14:32
Hi Richo. Can you tell us why you think that?
I've been searching, and I can find precious little about the calendar life of LTOs.
Well the only one stating calendar life is Altair-nano.
https://altairnano.com/products/70-amp-hour-cell/
25 years...
It would be interesting to see where their proof comes from.

But quite simply IF it was any better than the rest then marketing would be all over it.
Not even Toshiba state it in their SCiB cells.
And I doubt Yinlong would be in the same class as either of the above - so half ?!? 10-12 years

You are correct though the construction would imply that it can be better than the rest.
But since its not stated the assumption is they won't be much better than any other battery.

I would like ANY battery to be better 20 years would be good 7,300 cycles, 40 years 15,000 cycles.
The LTO's, even the crap ones, claim 15,000+ cycles.
So in my opinion this is where the battery development focus should be - calendar aging.
After 40 years any car really has had it's day - the battery would be the least of its problems.

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Tue, 16 Apr 2019, 09:45
by Richo
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/24pcs-L ... 87050.html
These are claiming 25 years.
Its even in bold :roll:
6C/15C 30,000cycles 25 years. (3cycles per day for 25 years)
Price is on par with headway cells.

Given its double life span that halves the unit cost overall...

Still no proof tho :geek:

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Tue, 16 Apr 2019, 10:32
by T1 Terry
You have to have faith Richard :lol: LTO shalt inherit the major market share .... well, until the next greatest thing comes along anyway. Could it be the new solid state batteries?
As far as price comparison, we all had to take the LFP chemistry on faith that it would out perform and out last lead technology to make the higher price acceptable, it has proved itself as far as house batteries at least. We considered we would be ahead of the game if they lasted as long as 2 sets of deep cycle AGM batteries providing 24/7 365 day service, 5 yrs compared to 2.5yrs for the AGM batteries. The price was double that of the equivalent quality AGM batteries with the added light weight and high discharge rate capability compared to the AGM as a bonus. We now have house battery packs in their 8th yr of 24/7 365 days a yr service still testing at a greater than advertised capacity using the manufacturers 0.5CA load testing.
The rapid charge/discharge of the LTO compared to the Headway cells probably puts them ahead of the game, even if they only last the same length of time, hopefully the cycle life will be much like the improvement from lead acid to lithium, more than double.

T1 Terry

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Tue, 16 Apr 2019, 12:32
by Richo

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Tue, 16 Apr 2019, 12:39
by Richo
Richo wrote:
Mon, 15 Apr 2019, 13:02
And I doubt Yinlong would be in the same class as either of the above - so half ?!? 10-12 years
Well seems I'm WRONG
Yinlong bought out Altair Nanotechnologies in 2011.
https://www.electrive.com/tag/zhuhai-yinlong-energy/

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Tue, 16 Apr 2019, 12:42
by Richo
Well it explains why I see them together now...
http://www.zhyle.com/en/product-139.html

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Tue, 16 Apr 2019, 16:37
by weber
Well sleuthed Richo.

For those asking about datsheets, here's one for an Altair Nano 60 Ah prismatic LTO.
http://altairnano.com/wp-content/upload ... -Sheet.pdf
And here's one for a 40 Ah 66160 LTO that is probably not from Yinlong.
https://files.ev-power.eu/inc/_doc/atta ... asheet.pdf

I'm in the market for a replacement for the 218 ageing 40 Ah Sky Energy LFPs in my MX-5. I just did the geometry and figured I could just barely fit enough 66160 LTOs to get up to a similar voltage and energy, but I'd still have to use every one of the 10 battery boxes I have now. I was really hoping to at least dispense with the box containing 19 LFPs that are in the sun through the rear window, and a few of the smaller boxes besides.

But the 294 cells would cost $24 930. I only paid around $14 000 for my LFPs 10 years ago. So that's almost 1.8 times the cost. And it's not simply the case that they only need to last 18 years to be worth the money. It is likely that I could put in another 10 year pack for $14 000 and in ten years time buy a 15 year pack for much less than the remaining $10 930, which had meanwhile been earning interest. And the there's the fact that the car body was built in 1990 and so may not last as long as the LTO cells.

So sadly, they are out of the question for me.

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 17:16
by T1 Terry
the remaining $10 930, which had meanwhile been earning interest.
At the current rate, maybe enough to go for dinner to celebrate ..... at the Scottish restaurant :lol:
I'm assuming the 10 yrs is calendar age and not used cycle life. How many cycles do you think you got out of the 40 Ah Sky Energy LFP cells?
I guess cooling would restrict the use of any other chemistry.

T1 Terry

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 19:50
by weber
T1 Terry wrote:
Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 17:16
I'm assuming the 10 yrs is calendar age and not used cycle life. How many cycles do you think you got out of the 40 Ah Sky Energy LFP cells?
Probably only 500 cycles. 700 at the most. I think most of the ageing has been due to time and temperature. They spent the first 3.5 years of their life on a shelf in my workshop. Badly underestimated how long it would take to finish the car. We were told we'd get 10 years out of them, and that's what we got. Can't complain.

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Thu, 18 Apr 2019, 12:37
by Richo
weber wrote:
Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 19:50
Badly underestimated how long it would take to finish the car.
:( My projects seem to work on LIFO.
So the car ends up basically last.
:(

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Tue, 14 May 2019, 13:42
by T1 Terry
weber wrote:
Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 19:50
T1 Terry wrote:
Wed, 17 Apr 2019, 17:16
I'm assuming the 10 yrs is calendar age and not used cycle life. How many cycles do you think you got out of the 40 Ah Sky Energy LFP cells?
Probably only 500 cycles. 700 at the most. I think most of the ageing has been due to time and temperature. They spent the first 3.5 years of their life on a shelf in my workshop. Badly underestimated how long it would take to finish the car. We were told we'd get 10 years out of them, and that's what we got. Can't complain.
Our longest running house power RV battery packs are just over 8 yrs old and test at 100% capacity using the same 0.5CA capacity testing Winston use according to their specs books that come with the cells. I can't see a sudden loss of capacity happening in the next 10 yrs that would render the cells unsuitable for the job, so maybe it is the discharge rate the cells have a problem with rather than age. These cells are in use 24/7 as they are the power pack for these RV's that are on the road full time. The difference is they do not discharge the pack to a low SOC each time, generally around 40% SOC would be the average and not always returned to 100% SOC each time either, so it appears the LYP cells prefer this type of treatment.
It will be interesting to see just how long these systems will maintain their 100% of the advertised capacity under the 2 hr discharge test (0.5CA) it will at least clear up any doubts about the calendar life of these type of cells.

T1 Terry

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Thu, 16 May 2019, 07:17
by weber
T1 Terry wrote:
Tue, 14 May 2019, 13:42
Our longest running house power RV battery packs are just over 8 yrs old and test at 100% capacity using the same 0.5CA capacity testing Winston use according to their specs books that come with the cells. ... It will be interesting to see just how long these systems will maintain their 100% of the advertised capacity under the 2 hr discharge test (0.5CA) it will at least clear up any doubts about the calendar life of these type of cells.
You are seriously mistaken if you think that having 100% of advertised capacity means they have not lost any capacity. It is common for new LFP cells to have 125% of their advertised capacity. If so, that would mean they have lost 20% in their 8 years.

Do you know what their new capacity was?

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Thu, 16 May 2019, 07:34
by BaronVonChickenPants
Our initial shipment has left China and is bobbing along merrily towards Australia, or so I am told.

We are waiting on final customs costs for duties and taxes but quotes have the final retail pricing for 40AH 66160 cells at under AUD$70 inc GST, I will create a proper for sale post once everything is finalised.

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Thu, 16 May 2019, 12:33
by Richo
Nice.
The shipping agent should be able to tell you what vessel its on.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/ho ... 29/zoom:13

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Thu, 16 May 2019, 12:46
by T1 Terry
weber wrote:
Thu, 16 May 2019, 07:17
T1 Terry wrote:
Tue, 14 May 2019, 13:42
Our longest running house power RV battery packs are just over 8 yrs old and test at 100% capacity using the same 0.5CA capacity testing Winston use according to their specs books that come with the cells. ... It will be interesting to see just how long these systems will maintain their 100% of the advertised capacity under the 2 hr discharge test (0.5CA) it will at least clear up any doubts about the calendar life of these type of cells.
You are seriously mistaken if you think that having 100% of advertised capacity means they have not lost any capacity. It is common for new LFP cells to have 125% of their advertised capacity. If so, that would mean they have lost 20% in their 8 years.

Do you know what their new capacity was?
I don't actually care, if we sold a 400Ah battery and it still has more than 400Ah using the factory testing regime after 8 yrs use, I'm happy with that and the customers are over the moon happy. The next service schedule isn't for another 3 yrs, so these batteries will have been in service for 11 yrs, so more than 11 yrs old since manufacture. If they have substantial capacity loss after 11 yrs use, then there could be some truth in the 10 yr shelf life, if not, then it is yet another myth busted.

T1 Terry

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Fri, 17 May 2019, 12:49
by Richo
T1 Terry wrote:
Tue, 14 May 2019, 13:42
I can't see a sudden loss of capacity happening in the next 10 yrs that would render the cells unsuitable for the job
Don't confuse calendar life with cycle life.
Dendritic action I believe.
So the cell WILL just "die" one day even though yesterday it had 90-100% of the claimed capacity.
MTBF ~10 years...

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Mon, 20 May 2019, 15:37
by T1 Terry
Richo wrote:
Fri, 17 May 2019, 12:49
T1 Terry wrote:
Tue, 14 May 2019, 13:42
I can't see a sudden loss of capacity happening in the next 10 yrs that would render the cells unsuitable for the job
Don't confuse calendar life with cycle life.
Dendritic action I believe.
So the cell WILL just "die" one day even though yesterday it had 90-100% of the claimed capacity.
MTBF ~10 years...
That is yet to be seen, I haven't had one drop dead from natural causes yet, had quite a few murdered though and even those aren't completely dead unless dragged into reverse current flow, that kills them dead.

T1 Terry

Re: EOI - New Yinlong LTO cells Australia

Posted: Tue, 21 May 2019, 12:45
by Richo
Some of my headway cells are about that old.
And some just up and died.
Even though they worked fine with plenty of capacity 7 days earlier.
Rarely used past 1C and always balanced.

Whatever the action that causes it I still believe its real.

Someone please buy some LTO's and get back to me in 25 years to see if they're still good :lol: