Lithium Batteries Safety

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Goombi
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by Goombi » Sat, 30 Aug 2008, 04:53

http://www.xingheng.com.cn/en/knowledge.html

Interesting article and reading....

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Richo
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by Richo » Sat, 30 Aug 2008, 05:20


http://www.xingheng.com.cn/en/knowledge.html

Moral of the story don't put Lithium cobalt in your eV.

Most manufacturers state what test they do to assure safety of thier cells.
Although the "experiment of acupuncture" is interesting.
I now feel safe that thier cell can withstand alternative medicines. Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Goombi
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by Goombi » Sat, 30 Aug 2008, 05:35

Being made in China the first medical problem has to be treated with needles.
This Lithium frenzy, is it really good thing? if my inspector were to read this article he would condemn my poor EV instantly and have me admited..




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Richo
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by Richo » Sat, 30 Aug 2008, 06:14

But these are not the right batteries for an eV.
That's like showing us a saftey data sheet on Nicads and saying because of this data sheet you should not use Nickel metal hydride batteries.
Lithium Cobolt is a different chemistry to lithium Iron Phosphate.

Also the point they were trying to raise is that because of uneducated people and hysteria about high power batteries they have had to go to great lengths to proove that they are safe to use.
ie put a 3mm needle though battery -> No explosion no fire.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Gow864
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by Gow864 » Sun, 31 Aug 2008, 16:35

Goombi.

you've had a snipe at people using AC motors, now you're having a snipe a lithium batteries (an albeit uninformed snipe).

In 1975, I got a saturday morning job, I would get up a 03:30am, pedal off to the local milk depot and wait for a milko that wanted a helper for the morning. So my first ride in an EV was in 1975 (Milk floats were DC motor driven and SLA battery powered). So when I think of your Barina, I think milk float, of course there is a difference, the milk float could carry half a tonne of load.

The future of EV's is not DC, all the major car companies developing EV will use AC motors. They WILL NOT be using SLA batteries.

Now I congratulate you on your efforts, but you must realise that what you have built/building is using technology that was developed 40+ years ago. That technology didn't create a rush for EV's then, and it won't now.

There is also the perception angle. Is this what you want people to think an EV is? a glorified milk float?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float

As far as your heater demister solution goes.... well. It's not what I'll be doing. There are real plug and play solutions that would utilise all of the development done by holden e.g. ducted heating. Purchasing these products isn't a failure of finding a better way, but it is a way of supporting companies that are developing products for modern EV's, most of them are doing it without grants, subsidies, and general goverment hand outs.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Goombi
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by Goombi » Sun, 31 Aug 2008, 17:38

We are here not to critisise but to support. If i can support someone that is doing a ev on budget then they can read my posts.
re Milk carts..Not long ago taking a morning stroll in Salisbury wilts. I have still seen them delivering not only milk but groceries as well. Lovely quiet monsters. I like my Barina to be similar, efficient and doing what i want it to do within reasonable budget. With a speed that i expect and distance that i can reach
I do not need a wroom wroom vehicle. What I need for now till the end of times is to have a vehicle to take me to the library-doctor- hospital sports ground shoping centre theatre meetings etc which are all within 10 km My ev is only designed to do 60-70 km in distance and run at little better then geriatric pace-- within city speed.. None of us have recources to make that super ultimate EV people would jump on and buy. The final result will be in corporations hands like GM-ford mitsubishi- renault- vw and mini. India and China already have cars that will beat most of our best home built EV's --But can you get them on the road in Australia? NO way--- The green talk that comes from kev07 is only green slime. Some of us may think we are going to stop the planet from disintigration.. Possibly , but its only in our own minds.

TropicalEV
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by TropicalEV » Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 02:20

So tell me guys...why can't we get a hold of the components that make up the chinese cars?The chinese will pretty much sell anything these days...why not EV components? and does anyone actually SELL Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries?
" I haven't failed..I've just found 10,000 ways that it doesn't work" Thomas Edison while inventing the lightbulb

antiscab
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by antiscab » Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 04:09

TropicalEV wrote: So tell me guys...why can't we get a hold of the components that make up the chinese cars?The chinese will pretty much sell anything these days...why not EV components? and does anyone actually SELL Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries?


you can get hold of the components that make up chinese cars.
just ask goombi....i personally have never tried myself (mainly due to not having seen any high powered chinese built anything).

as for Ni-mh.
Ni-mh has many draw backs that many end users aren't necessarily aware of.
they need to be kept cool, otherwise self discharge increases dramatically. This is especially bad when different areas of the pack are at different temperatures, balance issues cause all kinds of havoc.

this means that you need a good BMS (3x more complicated in terms of connections than lithium) or good thermal management, preferably both.
both are expensive in terms of $$ and energy efficiency.
the result of not having either, is balance issues, as the vectrix guys are finding out.

the other problem is end of charge voltage falls slightly. So you need a charger that does cc-cv-cc. and if you have a long string (say, 144v worth) you need a BMS to detect end of charge properly.

the Ni-mh chemistry needs to be stored under pressure. so either this takes the form of stronger (heavier and bulkier) individual cells or good strapping (this is suggested for LiFePO4 aswell).

Ni-mh was only popular in the late 90s due to its greater energy density than lead, giving more range. its energy efficiency, in warm climates, is below even that of lead acid (which is below 80% in wh, and 90% in AH).

most of the manufacturing capacity is gearing towards lithium, particularly LiFePO4 and LiTi. thats where the cheap, energy dense batteries are going to come from.

there just isnt much in the way of manufacturing capacity for Ni-mh, without scale cost wont come down. without sufficient end user knowledge, no company wants to sell to individuals.
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

TropicalEV
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by TropicalEV » Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 04:53

Thanks for that Matt. very informative.
I read the "tech info" page on the home page and it mentioned them and gave a litle history about a patent lawsuit. Enough to spark my curiosity..LOL..
I wonder if Lithium won't go the same way as nimh (obsolete due to the finnicky nature of the chemistry) and be replaced by the next new hopefull?
I hope the next player will be a step or two closer than even lithium to being an idiot proof, energy dense, light weight solution.....
It's just a matter of when! Lead acid is AMAZINGLY still a viable option!
We can put a man on the moon.....blah blah....lol
Thanks again..
Cheers
Ken
" I haven't failed..I've just found 10,000 ways that it doesn't work" Thomas Edison while inventing the lightbulb

antiscab
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Lithium Batteries Safety

Post by antiscab » Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 06:46

yeh, chevron bought the patents from GM just after the EV1 program was shut down.
not that it mattered in China, it was just business as usual. in fact just 2 years ago i knew of a number of sources of large format Ni-mh, though very pricey (1.2v 90AH cell cost 200 pounds, or $60k AUD for 144v 90AH and that didnt include BMS)

if something comes out that is better than LiFePO4, and before the mass manufacture of LiFePO4 finally displaces lead acid in market penetration, then it probably will go the same way.

that being said, LiFePO4 is alot easier to deal (predictable) under charge and discharge than both ni-mh and lead.

i bought my LiFePO4 batteries earlier this year at cost parity to optima yellow tops, though optimas are probably the most expensive lead acid battery you can buy short of the aviation stuff.

battery prices move around alot though....i hear the lead prices are going to come back down to earth, (since the raw material cost has dropped so much). takes a while for prices to filter through though.

as far as making it idiot proof, a good BMS should do that. The LIFEBat packs look to be the go (though i havent seen one of those up close, and they do cost a fortune).
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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