Australian made batteries for EV

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Post by Kieran » Sun, 07 Sep 2014, 03:50

G'day.

Would I be right in thinking that there are no Australian made batteries other than Century?

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Mon, 08 Sep 2014, 20:34

Supposedly Marshall are made here...
http://www.marshallbatteries.com.au/_bl ... Australia/
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Richo » Mon, 08 Sep 2014, 20:35

Supposedly suncycle is too but I suspect the term "made" in Australia is used loosely.
http://www.planetarypower.com.au/solar_batteries.htm
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by 4Springs » Tue, 09 Sep 2014, 00:52

The AGM Century batteries I bought were not made in Australia.

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Post by Kieran » Tue, 09 Sep 2014, 03:43

Thanks for the replies.

The Suncycle site was interesting. They appear to be marketed as solar system batteries. Does that mean they would be unsuitable for EVs?

I checked the Century site again and you're right, they also sell imported batteries.

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Post by antiscab » Tue, 09 Sep 2014, 06:59

there are no good batteries made in Australia

well, none that are good for EV's anyway
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Post by Richo » Tue, 09 Sep 2014, 20:29

ZBB are in Australia and may still make flow batteries here.
http://www.zbbenergy.com/contact-us

SLA on a gokart doesn't sound appealing
Still better than a Lemon battery which could be made in Australia.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Tue, 09 Sep 2014, 20:36

Kieran wrote: Suncycle ... appear to be marketed as solar system batteries. Does that mean they would be unsuitable for EVs?


High capacity low C rating.
So not ideal for ev's.

I'm with Mat - no good batteries in Oz.
Even if they were made in Australia would you really want to buy them?
The reason they are made off shore as they are more setup for high volume manufacturing.
So if they were made here they would likely be 10X the price in smaller production runs.

$200 for a headway cell 3.2V 10Ah...
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Kieran » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 04:04

I'm sorry, I don't know what c rating means.

No job = no money for EV, hence my interest in Australian made.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 16:53

Kieran wrote: I'm sorry, I don't know what c rating means.

No job = no money for EV, hence my interest in Australian made.


the C ratting is the Capacity and the speed you can pull power out of the battery

if its a 100Ah battery

1C is 100Amps
2C is 200Amps
10C is 1000Amps

if its a 40Ah battery

1C is 40Amps
2C is 80Amps
10C is 400Amps

the more load you put on a battery the more damage you are doing to it

if your battery is ratted at 5C and your pull power out of it at 5C all the time they wont last as long as of you pull power out at say a ratting of 2C BUT you will not have the acceleration you may want

so if you need a constant amp draw of say 250amps to drive down the road you would want the battery's C ratting to be a bit higher so
you could go with a battery that has 100AH in it but has a 3C ratting (3C = 300amps)
or
you could go with a battery that has 50AH in it that has 5C ratting (5C = 250amps)

the 2ny set of battery's wont live as long as the first example because your running them at or over there ratting all of the time
Last edited by Adverse Effects on Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 06:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 17:39

Good summary adverse.
In addition, often battery suppliers will refer to things like AH at C20 (1/20 of C). This means that adverse's 100AH battery is rated at 100AH at a twentieth of its AH ratings. I.E. 5 Amps for 20 hours.
Lead acid are often rated at C20.
At 1C they get a lot less. It can be very manufacturer dependent.

For instance compare this Fullriver 22AH 12V AGM battery.
Capacity @25℃
20 hour rate (1.1A to 10.5Volts) 22AH
10 hour rate (2.05A to 10.5Volts) 20.5AH
5 hour rate (3.74A to 10.2Volts) 18.7AH
1 hour rate (13.2A to 9.6Volts) 13.2AH

With this ABT 20AH 12V AGM battery.
18.16AH @1hr-rate to 1.60V Per cell @20C

The larger batteries are pretty similar - just bigger figures.

EVs pull ever larger currents and the Fullriver above can supply ony 9AH at 4C.

Edit: Fixed incorrect terminology for sub C ratings.

Last edited by Johny on Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 12:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 18:08

Kieran wrote: I'm sorry, I don't know what c rating means.

No job = no money for EV, hence my interest in Australian made.
= Chinese, <> Australian.

One of the traps that most novice EV builders fall into is believing the hype on the battery manufacturers website. Most batteries will either not do the C rating claimed, have the cycle life (how many times you can recharge them), perform as well as expected, or all of the above.

It is very easy to fall into the trap of being optimistic that the batteries will perform as well or better than claimed, but they rarely do for various reasons, not limited to... don't have a BMS (battery management system) that is up to scratch, inadequate wiring capable of pulling the desired C, heat issues stoping the desired C being pulled from the battery, space limitations, weight limitation, contactors not big enough, fuses too small, and any other number of un-factored items.

Not wanting to sound nasty, but what the heck are you thinking about building an EV for if you don't have a job? EV's are not a cheap hobby unless you are incredibly resourceful, just happen to know the right people and have a ton of equipment and the necessary skill to use it, and then it will only reduce the cost so far.

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Post by Richo » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 20:40

EV2Go wrote: Not wanting to sound nasty, but what the heck are you thinking about building an EV for if you don't have a job?


I'd partially agree with this but there are others here in a similar situation pursuing building an eV and dont have a job.
It's like that old saying - it's not what you know but who you know...

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 20:59

Regarding the C rating of a battery and how bad PB (lead acid) can be depending on the rate you discharge it.

This is the spec sticker on the side of my 1330AH flooded lead acid cells that run my house.

Notice how the 1330AH is at c100 or about (600w) load (although this is probably around the average 24hr load they actually see)

That said at c10, 6000w load they almost 1/2 to 880AH



Image

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 21:25

Richo wrote:
EV2Go wrote: Not wanting to sound nasty, but what the heck are you thinking about building an EV for if you don't have a job?


I'd partially agree with this but there are others here in a similar situation pursuing building an eV and dont have a job.
It's like that old saying - it's not what you know but who you know...


I currently don't have a job either (Since Nov last year) but I probably have more savings than most to allow me to continue to tinker.

Not that having a job or not having one is an issue, but the point I am trying to make is building an EV on a super strict budget can be incredibly disappointing if you have to make so many compromises that you wind up with something disappointing. Its hard enough to get something exciting (performance wise) if you have unlimited budget let alone being broke.

There are probably plenty of married guys with kids / mortgage with a job or two, that can probably relate to trying to do it on a shoe string.

Edit:
Definitely agree with the who you know in this game. I remember not know what C stood for either 4 years ago, but that can be learned as long as you have the means.
Last edited by EV2Go on Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 11:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 21:47

I can agree that a lot of 1st timers underestimate the cost of building a EV.

I took the guy next door for a ride in the Imiev. He was very enthusiastic about Ev's from that moment on. He wanted to converter a particular model older Citroen. Listing off all the features he wanted to induce (basically all the mod cons and modern Ev related features the Imiev had)

I mentioned rough price on a AC motor controller package (Quoting one of the least expensive basic packages) He almost fell over backwards with shock! I didn't have the heart to tell him the battery's would cost double that again and then you haven't even brushed miscellaneous parts and engineering/approval cost and we are just talking parts price not to mention the fabrication and fitment.

Not sure what they were expecting. Perhaps we have just been spoiled with 100+ years of secondhand junkyard ICE car parts at very little cost that a engine swap or custom car project can come to life on the cheap with a creative mind. Not so easy with a EV at this stage. Though with more OEM EV parts popping up 2nd hand that will change

I am often shocked about the money spent on some home builds vs the price of new OEM EV But the same can be said for a custom car project vs purchasing a OEM.

I think the reference to jobs was about keeping the jobs in AU not about his lack of a job...(I could be wrong)

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 22:05

You may be right about the job Kurt. I hope to see people continue to convert, but I fear that OEM will become so cheap that it's no longer viable. I could buy two brand new sports bikes for what it will cost me to build one trike :( from an economic stand point EVs make little sense, but if something different / saving the planet is your thing then sometimes it costs to be different.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 10 Sep 2014, 22:33

offgridQLD wrote:I am often shocked about the money spent on some home builds vs the price of new OEM EV But the same can be said for a custom car project vs purchasing a OEM.
Kurt
The sudden cheap iMiev was unexpected and caused only by Mitsu pulling it from the Oz market - it killed potential DIYs here almost overnight (as we on the forum saw happen). As time goes by a DIY may become price-competitive again compared to a LEAF or such.

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Post by 7circle » Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 07:44

offgridQLD wrote: Regarding the C rating of a battery and how bad PB (lead acid) can be depending on the rate you discharge it.

This is the spec sticker on the side of my 1330AH flooded lead acid cells that run my house.

Notice how the 1330AH is at c100 or about (600w) load (although this is probably around the average 24hr load they actually see)

That said at c10, 6000w load they almost 1/2 to 880AH

Kurt


Often the load on the battery is periods of motors being on or off.
So using the average 24hr load can be misleading for the Ah consumed.

C10 (10hr rate) is 800Ah so 80A load
C20 (20hr rate) is 880Ah so 44A load
C100 (100hr 4day) 1330Ah so 13.3A load

If the motor load is say 44A for 1.33min every 4.4min the average is 13.3A

So would the battery appear to have the 13.3A rated Capacity of 1330Ah ?

No it would be based on the instantaneous load of 44A. So it would supply 880Ah over 20h x 4.4/1.33 = 66 hours

Were as the 13.3A averaged value would suggest 100 hours not 66 hours.

What would be the battery capacity/SOC after say 24hrs?
C20 rate: 880 - 44A   x 24h x 1.33/4.4 = 880 - 319.2 Ah = 560.8 Ahr => 560.8/880 = 63.72%
But..
C100 rate: 1330 - 13.3A x 24h x 1/1      = 1330 - 319.2 Ah = 1,010.8 Ahr => 560.8/880 = 76.00%

So using averaged load current over estimates the SOC by more
than (76-63.72)/63.72 = 19%

Peurket effect is a worry.

Then you have the recharging inefficiencies.


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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 12:48

Yes I wasn't taking the average load thing to serious or using it for any calculations. Particularly SOC In a home that with varying loads. I was referring to more my base load though there is a bunch of spikes all over the place over 24hrs. Like you show Pb is such a dynamic beast that you really only know once a day what the SOC is with any degree of accuracy and that that's when it's full .

Any other time of the day/night you have a guide. With Pb most Re just using a honking great big battery and work the top portion of it . So what the true capacity below that sip off the top is doesn't really matter.

I like the dam analogy. It's like installing a dam that's oversized for your water needs . You sip water from the top each day and the rain replaces it. The capacity changes throughout the year depending on conditions. Most times your fine and you get the water you need. eventually it will silt up from below and catch you by surprise.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 02:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 17:12

offgridQLD wrote: I like the dam analogy. It's like installing a dam that's oversized for your water needs . You sip water from the top each day and the rain replaces it. The capacity changes throughout the year depending on conditions. Most times your fine and you get the water you need. eventually it will silt up from below and catch you by surprise.

Kurt
Going one step further with the dam analogy. Lead is like a V shaped dam that while you are sipping from the top all appears normal, but if one day you are extra thirsty and you drink a little more than usual you can find yourself getting to closer to bottom faster and faster the more you drink.

Whereas a lithium dam is more of a U shaped dam and you can drink to your hearts content without concern, until you suddenly hit the bottom and find you have a mouth full of silt.

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Post by Kieran » Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 18:50

Thanks for the discussion, fellas. My schooling was not in the area of science/physics/etc (I'm an accountant by trade) so it'll take me a while to understand what you're saying here.

Kurt, you're right. One of my passions is keeping jobs in Australia. That's why my posts will often have an Australian made angle. I currently have a six month contract job in the city. If it goes permanent I'm contemplating giving up the Myki and selling the second car to fund the purchase of a Stealth ebike as a commuter. But on the other hand, if electric racing gets up in Melbourne I might need a second car as a tow vehicle. Time will tell.

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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 19:28

Hey Kieran, while I appreciate you wanting to keep jobs here, very quickly you will be faced with the choice of buying Australian made vs best of breed.

Unfortunately with such a small population it is hard for Australia to ramp up on anything quickly, EVs are no different. So this in turn means countries that may not ordinarily be first to mind wind up dominating the market due to sheer population numbers and business growth due to that simple fact.

We have some very smart people right here, but that alone doesn't guarantee a successful business. So quite often if you want the "best" or "cheapest" it is going to mean buying somewhere else.

We have a number of people even on this forum that are producing their own BMS systems and this may be the exception to the rule where you can buy a cutting edge product for a reasonable price, but for things like hi end / highest power output controllers with proven reliability or motors unfortunately you may have to look elsewhere.

Not that I want you to buy elsewhere but I do recommend looking at the Australian options first then if its not up to scratch then buy from overseas without guilt.
Last edited by EV2Go on Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 20:28

Johny wrote:The sudden cheap iMiev was unexpected and caused only by Mitsu pulling it from the Oz market - it killed potential DIYs here almost overnight


It would have made people rethink if it's worth converting.
And for some the answer is simple - buy off the shelf.
But for others the answer is simple too:
iMiev - No
Leaf - No
Volt - No
Tesla - Yes - but too expensive so NO

I have met people who are excited about owning an electric car.
I haven't met anyone who was excited about owning the top 3.

So I think DIY will always be around - esp since people will always be into "classic" cars.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 20:57

Yes, I agree the value in a DIY isn't always about saving money.Like I mentioned a lot of classic or custom cars don't necessarily represent good value but it depends on what you want to take away from it. A hobby or some form of expression through your custom DIY.

Though I draw the line on a cookie cutter car. say Honda civic, Toyota Carola or similar appliance car from the 80's - 90's with 30k of ev gear in it. Resulting in a lower spec less refined, less safe outcome than a entree level OEM EV for about the same or more $. I just cant justify that in any way other than a hobby to fill your time in.

As in I have seen people excited about building a DIY and then less exited by the outcome considering what they have spent.

Or put it this way. With the same money in hand $100,000. Could you build a like for like or better DIY car. Thats as good as a Tesla model s in every way. Performance, reliability, style, features, safety, refinement. Using all new parts. I think the economy of scale would result in a win for the OEM.

You might be able to pick one aspect and improve over it but not as a package.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Thu, 11 Sep 2014, 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

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