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woody
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Post by woody »

I made enquiries with: China Hipower New Energy Group
AKA China Shandong Hipower New Energy Group
www.chinabatteries.net and www.chinahipower.com.cn

mostly because they have 10Ah and 20Ah LiFePO4s, meaning a 415V AC industrial conversion didn't mean $12,000 of TS LFP40AHA.

Has anyone seen/heard any testing / real world use of these? They don't have an Australian distributor, but they seem to be looking. They gave me a price of US$1.60/Ah, but I assume that is bulk from the factory, but it's not a bad price.

Even if it turns out to be AU$2.25/Ah, it's only $4500 for a 600V 6kWh pack. Compared to a pack of 50 Greensaver 20Ah lead-acids:

HP have similar range at recommended DoD
HP are 3 times the cost
HP have 2 times the life (power delivered at recommended DoD times # cycles)
HP are <1/4 the weight
HP are <1/2 the size

cheers,
Woody
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Hi Woddy,

You will need about 12kWh of batteries to get a range of 50+km. for the ute, if you guestimate about 200kWh / km

Unfortunatly that would double the price to 9k + a couple of grand for a BMS.

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Post by acmotor »

FYI
I have 40Ah TS on order for my next conversion (Rodeo)
My reasoning was that TS recommend max cont discharge rate of 3C, that is 120A. From red suzi with 20Ah SLA (11kW motor) max cont is 60A and the Rodeo is running 22kW motor. On the TS, you can pulse this higher at the expense of voltage drop and battery life. For my investment in TS they MUST last.
Range is the other issue. I am insisting on 100km so I need 20kWh +
This costs.

If you are happy with less range, and that is quite OK (even 10km is fine if it suits your trips) then use a smaller kWh pack.
Just make certain that the discharge rate is OK for the battery.
Personally here, I consider Lithium Polymer to be superior as they can handle up to 30C cont by design. This means a pack that discharges in 10 minutes is OK. I have even purchased enough Lipo for a 48V 16Ah module to add to the red suzi.

The greensavers AGM SLA look a better battery in Peukert than my SLA Hendas in red suzi and will handle higher discharge currents. Worth a look. Battery management is a lot cheaper, particularly in higher voltage pack.
My impression is that many lead acid packs are killed because they CAN deliver high current, not because they should be asked to.
converted RedSuzi, the first industrial AC induction motor conversion
on to iMiEV MY12 did 114,463km
now Tesla Model 3, 4/2021 MIC pearl white
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Thanks for the info Tuarn.

How will you be balancing the Lipo pack?

Just curious as there are a lot of cells in a 600v pack.

The solar van BMS looks like a good open source place to start. http://batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk/for ... php?t=1245

I see he as also gone to direct drive AC. :)

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Mal.
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Post by woody »

Hey AC Heros!

sorry for the delay.

My calcs for Mal's Hilux @ 200Wh/km:

50 x 20 Ah x 12 V Greensavers = 12 kWh.
I think Mal said he was going for 60% DoD (~650 Cycles from spec sheet)
Therefore 60% * 12 = 7.2kWh pack @ 200Wh/km = 36 km range.
650 cycles * 36 km = 23,400 km lifetime.

200 x 10 Ah x 3.2V Chinabatteries = 6.4 kWh
Choose 80% DoD for 2000 cycle life
Therefore 80% * 6.4 = 5.12kWh pack @ 200Wh/km = 26 km range.
2000 cycles @ 26 km = 102,400 km lifetime

So yep, for a 50km range @ 200 Wh, I'd need to go the double-sized & priced motorbike cells.

A cortina is a lot smaller and lighter than a hilux. I'm hoping to finish up with an 800kg vehicle, not 1500kg, according to the EV calculator, that means <8kW @ 80kph i.e. < 100Wh/km i.e > 50 Km range.

Weight for me is a big issue - I just can't see 350 Kg of greensavers with 95kg of AC motor in a tiny ancient Cortina sailing smoothly through the wheels of the Roads and Traffic Authority :-)

Tuarn, I'm curious about your setups:
how much do the motors weigh (11kw, 22kw)
how much current comes out of your SLA pack (peak)
can the danfoss current limit from the DC bus (to protect the batteries)
Have you tried the danfoss with a significantly lower voltage pack (300-400V)?

If these chinabatteries are happy with 10C continuous (100A) then I should be OK for a 15kW motor.

How short is pulse discharge generally on a battery spec sheet. I.E. 10 secs, 1 sec, 100ms?

cheers,
Woody
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack
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Post by acmotor »

woody,

It’s good to see someone trying to make sense of batteries, range and weight. Image
Can I push the numbers around a bit too… ?
I think Mal’s greensavers may be as good as 17Ah at 1hr after peukert ?
(I only get 12Ah from my 20Ah Hendas in red suzi)
So 50 x 17Ah x 12V = 10.2kWh = 50km max range @ 100% DOD assuming 200Wh/km
Target working range at 60% DOD = 30km, good for less than 300kg of lead.
This makes life of 650 x 30 = 19,500 , call it 20,000km.
At 30km per day for 200 days a year typical , this is over 3 years of fairly full on use while lithiums come down in price !

In the same 300kg battery pack my Rodeo will have 220 x 3.2V 40Ah TS lithium.
= 28.16 kWh so at 200kWh/kg this gives (optomistic) max 140km range with working target of 100km.
This gives a life of 2000 cycles x 100km = 200,000km.
At 30km per day for 200 days a year this is 33years+ (I don’t recon the lithiums would last that long !)
At 100km per day for 200 days a year this is 10 years( lithiums may still may not last that long)

Problem is the lithiums will cost 4 x as much up front (with BMS) so the greensaves are still realistic option. Look after then (as AC systems do) and the lead acid may last a lot longer than 3 years.

Cortina will not be 800kg if it has 50km range, even if it has lithiums.

Danfoss naturally current limits, in several places. Lots of protection.
This config Danfoss cuts off at 470VDC (low volts) after warning settable up to 60 seconds.
Lower voltage means full motor torque only available to lower than 50Hz.

11kW AC= 80kg motor , no gearbox, 87% efficient to diff. 97% efficient controller
On red suzi, peak current from battery pack is 60A (3C).. Cruise at 60kmph is 10A.
By comparison, most DC systems seem to hammer the batteries to 5 or 10C, with more acceleration but not efficiency.

22kW AC= 160kg motor (heavy), no gearbox, but 94% efficient to diff. 97% efficient controller on Rodeo.
Numbers will be as above to start with (same Danfoss VLT5042 controller as red suzi)
Peak torque around 312Nm at 1500RPM (limited) on this controller. Will eventually require a 60kW controller for full motor potential.

Ask the DC boys for their weight and efficiency numbers.
Don’t forget to add the water coolers etc. and the welding cable !

Pulsing is like the I squared t (sorry, can’t find superscript) rating with fuses.
The higher the pulse the shorter the time.
I would suggest a 3C battery could be pulsed to 5C for 10 seconds although this results in losses as the battery voltage droops…. Unless it is a LiPo.

   Image
converted RedSuzi, the first industrial AC induction motor conversion
on to iMiEV MY12 did 114,463km
now Tesla Model 3, 4/2021 MIC pearl white
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Post by woody »

Thanks Tuarn,

wow that 22kW motor is heavy.

thanks for the answers on the danfoss.

My Cortina Weight calcs:
Starting weight: 800 kg (yes, it's very bloody light)
Lose ICE bits: -150kg? (cast iron motor & head, small 4 spd gearbox, fuel tank)
Add 15kw AC Motor: +95
Add danfoss + wiring bits + BMS: +45
Add 200 10ah chinahipowers: +84
Total: 875kg?

EV Calculator reckons 10.13HP @ 50mph = 7.5kW @ 80kph
Divide by inefficiencies (0.95*0.87*0.97) -> 9.35kW @ 80kph
6.4kw @ 80%DoD @ 117W/km -> 43 km range :-)

So if batteries can do 60-80Ah, should be happy with 11-15kW AC motor.

Just for kicks I chucked an extra 270 kg into the calculator (greensaver weight over chinabattery), and it gave me only 1 extra HP for 80kph, so should only affect range by 10%. (acceleration by 30%!)
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Just a quick note. the greensavers are 20Ah at their 2 hour rate and at an average of about 30A have a capacity of 18.6Ah at 35 minutes to 10 volts.
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Post by acmotor »

yeh, I think those greensavers look good. A big step up on my Hendas.
Closer to woody's range calc. If I get 40km max then you are looking at 60km.

converted RedSuzi, the first industrial AC induction motor conversion
on to iMiEV MY12 did 114,463km
now Tesla Model 3, 4/2021 MIC pearl white
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Post by acmotor »

Mal,
Your question on LiPo balancing. I only have charge balancing in my first trial using 2 x RC model 5 cell eq charger boxes. LiPos are arranged as 4 parallel strings of 10 cells. They are 4.4Ah 3.7V so pack is 17.6Ah at 37V. This is a lot more than SLA capacity (12Ah) so I am getting away with not being very cleaver on the discharge limit as yet.
Charging is a fiddle as the chargers must be plugged in to each set of 5 cells at a time.
If it works out I will make a voltage monitor for each (opto isolator driven by Zener to be on when volts OK)
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Post by Richo »

woody wrote:wow that 22kW motor is heavy.


Mmmm and I'm gunna try it in a '86 BMW 318i.
A bit of Tardis technology and it will all fit in piece of cake!
The worst part is all that oil leaking out everywhere before the conversion even begins!
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Post by woody »

More info on the hipowers: 3C max for 15 secs, 1C continuous. So it looks like 20Ah required, 150kg, and I'm up to 950kg for the Cortina.

Have you found a cheapish supplier of big LiPo cells? I'm only finding them at 5-6 X more expensive than Thunder Skies...
Last edited by woody on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, 13:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Richo »

I like thier translation on the battery info.
According to them thier 20Ah battery weighs under 850kg.
Heavy man!

Unfortunately the Bimmer will be a bit overweight with TS cells so I need a lighter or smaller capacity battery as well.
Because the quanities are not group buy size the price is higher.
So I could buy the 40Ah TS cells for the same price as smaller capacity lighter batteries.

The closest spec I've seen you want is 200 x 15Ah would be 78kg & 44L.
200 x 3.2 x 15Ah = 9600Wh total cap
9600 x 0.8 = 7680Wh useable cap
To get 50km you need 7680Wh / 50km = 153.6Wh/km or less.
Which may be possible.
20Ah batts would be 116kg.

I'm looking at 30Ah batts cos I still want a decent range.
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Post by woody »

Thanks Richo,

I didn't see any 15Ah cells! Where are they from? Same weight as the 10Ah I found...

I've been playing around with Google Sketchup to see if everything will fit under the bonnet. (Assuming an IEC 160L motor like a4x4kiwi).

Image
(yes I'm a born artist, I know, I know :-)
I haven't modelled the danfoss yet, I don't know where it will live. It makes sense to cram it under the bonnet in preference to the some batteries I guess.

I can fit 150 20Ahs under the bonnet with the motor, so it makes sense I should be able to fit 200 15Ahs :-)

Or I can fit 96 LFP40AHAs under the bonnet, with 64 between the shock towers, and 40 where the fuel tank used to be.

200 is a bloody lot of batteries.
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Post by Johny »

Do you need 200? I was figuring on 180 at 3.2V = 576V. At 3V per cell we get 540 which the VSD is still happy with. I guess it depends how the regen braking control works in the VSD on how much voltage you can drop to. I am currently favoring a chinese drive with adjustable voltage limit. I'll post details if it works out.
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Post by woody »

Johny,

Tuarn says the Danfoss cuts out after being under 470V for a user-configurable 60seconds. With 180 cells, that's about 2.6 volts. I think the TS go down to 2.5 when they are flat, so you may want another 8 cells. (I don't really know how much of an issue this will be)

The other issue is the controller is probably expecting a pretty solid 586V+ the whole time to be able to construct the 415V AC for the motor. If you're only giving it 85-90% of that you may only get 70-80% (square of 85-90%) of the peak power from the controller. (Again I don't have the experience to know if this will be a big deal).

Tuarn, why 220 cells?

cheers,
Woody
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Post by woody »

This thread (well the original question anyway) may be a bit irrelevant now, looks like LFP20AHAs are being sold:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/20565 ... 20AHA.html

A bit heavier than I was expecting (1kg each) but pack about 10% more AH for their size than the LFP40AHAs.
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Post by Johny »

Hi Woody
Now you have made me look a tad further than my nose I see minimum voltage recommendations for LifPo4 of anywhere between 2.2 and 2.5 volts. I figure they were pretty much flat at 2.5/cell hence the 180.
The large voltage range for Lithium from fully charged to flat-ish also may be a problem for VSDs if there are too many cells which also made me want to err on the low side.
It's become academic for me as the extra money for lithium just got vetoed. Boy and that was under estimating how many cells I'd need.
Now I'm waiting to see how the Greensavers go and looking once more at the risky chinese AGMs.
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Post by Johny »

Woody, by the way , looking back through this thread I notice that you were concerned about motor weight. The motor I've chosen is a CMG 11kW "high power rating" which makes it an 12kW and only weighs 61kG in a 132M frame (smaller then Tuarn's 160 frame. It's an unusual size and only CMG and ABB (ASEA) appear to have it (out of the 5 or so manufacturers I've checked). The CMG is 15kG lighter than the ABB.
The rest of it's specs compare well with the 160 frame motors. RRP $1248 + GST.
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Post by woody »

Hi Johnny,

Hopefully you can still keep the back seats with Greensavers.

The good news with greensavers is that they are cheap upfront & per lifetime kilometer (I calculate cheaper that LFPs), the only downside is they are 2-3 times the weight for their recommended DoD range.

You will also get another chance for lithium budgetary approval after 30-50,000 km because the greensavers will have done their 800 cycles @ 50% DoD by then...

Re: CMG Motor - thanks, that looks tops. More room & weight for batteries! More sketchuping required.

Assuming Mr Danfoss can do the same with this as the ABBs:
72.7 Nm torque * 466% = 340Nm stall torque - almost as much as a Lotus Cortina gets (365Nm) in 1st gear, but with no gearbox losses.
Last edited by woody on Mon, 28 Jul 2008, 11:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johny »

I was worried about the back seats because of what i've read on these forums and the other half saying "no back seats, no EV!". Reading regs very carefully it just means I have to get engineering check on suspension. 1965 Humber Vogue should be up for it. I recently redid the whole front end in new parts so upgraded coils if needed should be too much of a push. Back end just add another leaf ah-la towing upgrade. It's not a MccPhersons strut - it's a real front end!

The CMG specs are almost identical to the ABB - if not a tad better in the area of breakaway torque. The smaller motor only downside is probably less heat dissipation which should be fine for with our airflow over the motor casing.
See
http://www.cmggroup.com.au/

I am concerned that Mal killed his test Greansaver battery after a short time but I love that he'll be running it for a while before I purchase. (thanks Mal)
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Post by Johny »

Sorry, wasn't having dig at the Cortina front end. 1965 Cortina was my first car.
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Post by woody »

No offence taken (or detected!)
Early Falcons (1960?) didn't cope with our crap roads, hopefully ford learnt from thier mistakes and fixed the Cortina :-)
It is a bit of a lightweight, less than an Echo/Yaris, but heaps bigger.
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Post by woody »

Hey Tuarn / Mal,
is the danfoss Hz limited to 120Hz?
Or is that a limitation on the AC input frequency?
I'm asking because if so I'll have to choose between top speed and accelleration. (By changing diff ratio and/or tyre & wheel sizes).
cheers,
Woody
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Hi Woody,

The Danfoss can be programmed to do 0-132hz or 0-1000hz.

There is no limitation on input frequency as we are feeding the DC bus. (The AC input range is 48-62hz for mains operation)

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