Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by kevenbenz » Wed, 31 Jul 2013, 22:46

Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best for our EV?
Which one do u prefer?
It's said that the LFP is much more popular in AU,does it?
Why does CALB so branded in AU?
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by kevenbenz » Thu, 01 Aug 2013, 01:45

anyone known about the EV-POWER austrilia?
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Simon
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by Simon » Thu, 01 Aug 2013, 04:58

I thought LFP batteries were the popular choice for EV conversions everywhere?

EV Power is where I got my Sky energy/ calb cells and BMS from.

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by jonescg » Thu, 01 Aug 2013, 05:03

They're just chasing profile -> website -> sales traffic.

LFP is popular because it's cheap Image
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by Simon » Thu, 01 Aug 2013, 05:29

jonescg wrote: They're just chasing profile -> website -> sales traffic.


Image Yeah only realised after I posted.

Everything is cheap compared to EIG! Image

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by kevenbenz » Thu, 01 Aug 2013, 17:50

yes,I think so too,LFP's performance is better than the others,just confusing the Tesla‘s battery choice,it's just like sitting on a bomb~~ Image
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by kevenbenz » Thu, 01 Aug 2013, 18:54

Recommendation of the powerful LFP manufacturer:www.topbandenergy.com.
A listed company only focusing on the SOLAR ENERGY STORAGE,UPS,EV,HEV etc.
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by Richo » Thu, 01 Aug 2013, 20:49

And there's the plug...

Simon wrote:Everything is cheap compared to EIG!


The benefit of EIG is the capacity.
You pay for the ability to have the capacity.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by kevenbenz » Fri, 02 Aug 2013, 00:03

not exactly right,
their's higher price depends on the higher cost of the metarials and the labors and their high profit usually~
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by cobber » Sat, 31 Aug 2013, 03:32

The most popular battery used for electric vehicles is Li-Ion. These are used by Tesla, Nissan and most Ebike manafacturers. They have 25% higher energy density than LiFePO4.Their energy density is 175- 250 W/Kg and are safer than LiPo. Balancing and battery management is much easier than LiFePO4 bue to their wider voltage range and more linear voltage rise during charging. Panasonic has been manufacturing industrial quality 18650 cells since 2008. There most popular electric vehicle cell is CGR18650CG. No they are not laptop batteries.Expected life in Tesla is 5 - 7 years. Nissan manufacture their own Li-Ion batteries and expect 6 - 9 years at 80% terminal capacity. These cells are cost effective and low weight.

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by kevenbenz » Fri, 06 Sep 2013, 18:17

It's the truth that the TESLA&some Japan autos use the 18650 cells,but pls known more about it,the energy density is higher,but the life cycles and high temperature performance are worse than the LFP,if u ever see the 18650 cells bombs up,maybe u will change ur ideas.
And can the panasonic&sony can low down the higher price?indeed the tesla's battery modules and the BMS costs at least more than30,000dollars ```
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by cobber » Sat, 07 Sep 2013, 05:39

For use in Electric vehicles the most common choice is Li-Ion. Tesla uses 18650 size cells. For more information read the data sheet first regarding "Heat Resistant Layer" and stable operating temperatures before commenting. https://master-instruments.com.au/cgi/a ... le/62426/1
The 18650 format has a high surface area per volume and will dissipate any heat buildup faster than larger prismatic cells. 18650 cells don't make good bombs even when working hard. If you want to make a bomb LiPo is the better choice. Japanese EV manufacturers are using Li-Ion in prismatic formats. The projected life of Nissan Li-Ion batteries are 7-11 years at 15,000km per year use and 80% capacity for end of life. The price per Kw/Hr of Li-Ion is lower than LiFEPO4 cells such as CALB. The vehicle will give a longer range per charge or lighter battery weight with Li-Ion.
Lets talk about BMS. Li-Ion batteries have a more constant increase in voltage as they charge. The cells charge more evenly through the pack. With LiFePO4 the cells will charge to 3.45 volts per cell and them the voltage will quickly rise upto 3.65 volts or more. The cells in pack are more vunerable to uneven overvoltage charging and require a more sophisticated overvoltage protection and cell balancing circuit. Li-Ion does require a BMS but it is not working as hard as the one in LiFePo4 battery.

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by g4qber » Fri, 17 Jan 2014, 15:36


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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by cobber » Fri, 17 Jan 2014, 17:13

Jack Rickard from EVTV has tested some LiMnO battery modules from wrecked Nissan Leafs. LiMnO is not high density at 121 KwHr/Kg but is a popular choice with auto manufacturers. He is acheiving 25% increase in energy density compared to CALB LiFePO4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZuu4YMhXI0
These batteries are for sale on Ebay and suit US buyers.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251359065474 ... 0024875614

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by g4qber » Tue, 06 May 2014, 07:39

LEAF batts are sensitive to high temps.
Volt's batt is only slightly better.

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?tit ... acity_Loss
Last edited by g4qber on Mon, 05 May 2014, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by 7circle » Thu, 23 Oct 2014, 22:02

Just thought I'd move this post over here as it's more relevent.. than in a 4 sale thread for a motorebike..
Just for anyone looking for cell info.
Not sure on cell charge/discharge efficiency.
And the motivation for some people to test these cells for e-cigs etc makes my eyes roll what drives commerce and design..
>>>
...
2.7kWh pack on K2 Energy cells 264 x
Spec sheet :LFP26650EV 3200mAh x 3.2 for 10.2 Wh 82g $13.00

The K2 have power cells too that can hold pulse power for 30sec. 50A
LFP26650P 2600mAh x 3.2V for 8.3 Wh 80.5g $15.00
Or 18650 K2 K218650E 1500 mAh $9.50
LFP18650P Hi Power Rechargeable 3.2V 1250mAhr $12.00

Compared to A123
A123-ANR26650M1-B 2500mAh 76g $9.75 say 70A continuous and 120A for 10sec
Also the 18650 1100mA APR18650M1A Cell is $7.50 each for qty 500.
But I was wondering how much energy other chemestries like NMC NCR IMR type cells could jam in.

And how much power they could put out.

This site has Amazing test data 5A some with 20A http://www.dampfakkus.de/
Brands like Keeppower perhaps rebranding cells.
Image
Image
But at 5A it gets 17.3Wh
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=530

The LG and Sony new cells have power and energy in smaller 18650 size.
Image
But they get hot.. 80degC hot..

Here is a 20A load test:
Image

And pulse tests of 10sec 30sec off are interesting for smaller cell:
Image
To get 7.6Wh out ov the VT5 18650 cell from 20A pulse load is very hefty.

But pushing 600A from 6 x 3.2Ah 26650 energy cells is quite fantastic.
Thats about 35C rating..
...
But cycle life is another story... at the power levels. bit of an unknown.

For list of cell manufacturers and data sheets...
http://liionbms.com/pdf/
such as EIG :
LiFePO4 flat http://liionbms.com/pdf/eig/ePLBF.pdf
LiMn2O4 power http://liionbms.com/pdf/eig/ePLBH.pdf
Li-Ti Charge fast http://liionbms.com/pdf/eig/ePLBQ.pdf
Li[NiMnCo]O2 energy http://liionbms.com/pdf/eig/ePLBC.pdf

[edit - removed extra pastes blocks .. oops]
Last edited by 7circle on Thu, 23 Oct 2014, 11:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by Rusdy » Tue, 17 Feb 2015, 22:22

To battery geeks out there, I found article in http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2008/ ... ROOF_9.pdf is very helpful. Highlights:

Regarding Li-ion (all types), generally:

"Lithium-ion systems are non-aqueous, so water-based side reactions are absent and charging is highly efficient, with virtually
100% of the ampere-hours supplied being stored."

Yup, I can testify this is true. I've been diligently monitoring my Ah usage and Ah charging (mine NMC). They always the same within 1%.

-----------

I've seen many topics regarding "Shall I disconnect my charger at the end of charging?". Well, this article mentions this too (the answer is "irrelevant"):
"The situation in lithium-ion batteries, particularly in float applications, is fundamentally different because the lack of side
reactions involving water results in virtually no current flowing through the cells on float... The important consequence of this situation is that in most standby applications it makes no difference whether a battery is maintained on float charge or is periodically disconnected from the charger. The aging rate will be the same in both cases, and is strongly influenced not just by temperature but also by the voltage to which a cell is charged"

I can testify with my own electric bike battery (NMC) that it consumes no current at the end of charge cycle. It happily sits there (consuming no current) for looong time.

---------------


Regarding Lithium Titanate, it is best for fast charged:
"Lithium titanate negative material operates at a higher (less negative) voltage, at which lithium ions are stable with respect to the electrolyte. An SEI does not form and the overheating problem (for the negative) is eliminated. An additional benefit for lithium titanate is seen in fast charging."

-------------------


For high temperature performance, from reading section 'Aging at the negative' looks like the order is: Lithium Titanate (used by iMiev [1]), NCA (used by Tesla [2]), NMC, then LFP. I'm trying to find more details at what 'elevated' temperature. This article [3] seems to indicate LFP actual performs better at 'elevated' temperature, but only tested upto 45C (which agrees on the battcon article, beyond that, who knows).



References:
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV
[2] http://articles.sae.org/12833/
[3] http://mtrl1.me.psu.edu/Document/Zhang_JPS_11.pdf
Last edited by Rusdy on Tue, 17 Feb 2015, 11:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by cobber » Wed, 18 Feb 2015, 15:50

Looking through the batteries tested I have used some of these in high power Ebike batteries that I built. I found the following.
LG 18650HE2 is the main battery that I have used. I can buy them for US$3.80 from OSN Power and are the best value. Sony US18650VTC5 have the highest power density and about 10% more range but are difficult to buy. I have been quoted US$5 – 6 each for them.
The other that I have used from your tests are Panasonic CGR26650B. These are a popular power tool battery.

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by Richo » Wed, 18 Feb 2015, 20:45

An Orange isn't really any better than a Lemon.
People just prefer the taste of the Orange.

As mentioned before this thread was created by a battery supplier after sales.

Going round in circles over which battery is better is pointless.
Just buy what suits your needs or budget.

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by Rusdy » Wed, 13 May 2015, 16:40

Looks like NCA is still the best to date in all regards. It confuses the hell out of me why Tesla powerwall uses NMC and claims better lifecycle (Click Here).

I found this excellent experiment from EU (Click Here) and the experiment is not to be taken lightly (not done by hobbyist in the backshed, although there is nothing wrong with doing science in the backshed of course):

Image

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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by Richo » Wed, 13 May 2015, 21:29

Rusdy wrote: I found this excellent experiment from EU (Click Here)


So this is a test conducted by RENAULT to evaluate chemistry potential for their future vehicles?
From what I figure they got a(ONE) battery manufacturer to make all the different cells.
Which to me sounds bad as no one manufacturer excels in multiple chemistries.
Peak power of all their cells is ~3C.
And LFP did the worst of out of all of them Image
This seems to disagree with the general knowledge.

I doubt this is a good representation of what is available on the market today.
More like what Renault can get their preferred battery manufacturer to make.
And not even something we could buy or even verify.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by antiscab » Sat, 16 May 2015, 22:57

The PHEV batteries doing better is exceptionally suspect - the PHEV application is far more demanding than an EV - you are using a smaller battery to run a bigger heavier car
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by Richo » Mon, 18 May 2015, 20:39

Nah it was found in another thread that the information in the table was bogus/misleading.
I'd completely disregard it.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Li-polymer,LiFeO4,LiMnO,which one is the best?

Post by 7circle » Thu, 25 Jun 2015, 06:53

There is so much miss leading info on the web's and from unit'sand other research.

I have some saved cash .. and before I waste it I want to buy some good batteries.

Not second hand used one's.

So for $5000 what cells would be good.

But I need a bus and 6hr charger (C/6).

So what would allow me 195 kW peak (10sec)
And 95W continuous.

EIG SOUND popular for power applications.

Need to do more study.

$1/wh would give me 5000 W.h
50 kW cruise power at 100km/h.
5000/50000 = 0.1hour 6min

10KW at 40km/h gives 30min
Or 20km

So 200 kW peak 5 kW.h 40C rate discharge.
50kW is 10C
10kW is 2C

There are some dream targets of midnight persuasion.

I hope in 2015 they are achievable.

Cheers 7c

Edit I think I will make a new thread.

Image Image
Last edited by 7circle on Wed, 24 Jun 2015, 20:55, edited 1 time in total.

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