What an EVSE provides

How do you store and manage your electricity?
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Post by coulomb »

g4qber wrote:One had to be wary of the ones on eBay as they may be 120v 15a.

The specific model recently sold on Ebay was the "international" version, nominally 230 V, and is rated to 265 V.

But yes, always check the voltage, especially when it comes from the USA.
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Post by acmotor »

weber wrote: The portable EVSE that comes with the Leaf has a tag on its cord near the plug saying "Don't use an extension cord or adapter" in 6 different languages. So the myth you're busting comes via the car manufacturers, and good on you for busting it. With the switchboard and wiring standards we have in Australia it is indeed little more than paranoia.
In a way yes, but two points.
Panasonic and the J1772 folk not Nissan or Mitsubishi have set the EVSE requirements AFAIK.
As with many things, the guide line (Don't s) are subject to the knowledge of the user. Using an extension lead can be done. There are losses, heating, water etc to be considered. You are right, Oz is perhaps a safer place with ELCBs etc, but then probably one of the highest domestic voltages in the world.
The manufacturers are playing it safe, for general public, for a world market.
weber wrote: Acmotor, if or when you use your portable EVSE without an extension lead, and the powerpoint is more than 600 mm from the ground or floor, do you consider it unsafe the way the weight of the EVSE tends to pull the plug partway out of the socket?

I don't expect you to agree, but I hope other readers can see that if it's OK to plug your EVSE into an extension lead, the logical conclusion is that it would also be OK to have the EVSE built into the car, in which case the combination of J1772 EVSE controller and J1772 EV controller could be replaced by a simple interface in the car for choosing how much current to draw.

To make this foolproof it could be based on resistor-coded plug adapters as I suggested, using a fourth wire that I will call the "sense" wire from now on, to avoid confusion with the J1772 pilot wire, and to suggest that it makes more "sense" than tying a brick to your plug.


Mass production EV charging by the public is evolving and on a world wide platform. At least there is a standard !

The short lead from the EVSE brick to the 3 pin plug is part of the J1772 standard. (<300mm from memory). This was to provide the least unprotected amount of lead. i.e. there was a good reason. In practice it may not be convenient. I respect the best intention and expect it may well evolove in the future to please users.

Keep in mind that the 'emergency use' charger was not intended by the manufacturer to be the regular use charger.
You are pointing out why you will end up with a proper EVSE wall mounted. A DIY EVSE that's fine, just meet the J1772 standard.

The (iMiEV at least) EVSE brick comes with a lanyard and user instruction not to hang the brick on the cord. You quite rightly decided to support the brick.
In your particular setup in the earlier pics if the lead was longer then the brick would sit on the ground/garden and be wet and muddy to then be returned to the boot. (the IP67 would be OK though).

Your assumption that I, and clearly all EV manufacturers, would disagree with the (un)safety of placing the EVSE inside the vehicle is correct.
A power cord that is live before connecting to a vehicle and is only protected by an ELCB (in probably a minority of markets) is no match for a charging cable with IP54/IP67 connector that is inert from the EVSE out until a series of go/no go safety checks including EV earth are done after the EV is connected. But wait, you could turn the power switch off ! but what if you don't ?

Homework:
Why was PWM used for the pilot signal and not just resistor/DC voltage (they are there as well to be sure) ? It may answer to yourself how simple yet safe the J1772 system is.
True the CAN coms of the CHAdeMO is a step further but that would have put the EVSE cost up even more and you are complaining already. Image

edit: typo
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Post by g4qber »

Hi coulomb

Please provide link to eBay listing of clipper creek 240v 15a model thanks

I've noticed that some of the clipper creeks don't ship to Australia

I've been trying to source a brick evse that is compatible with the volt
As mentioned above my collection of evses trip with the volt

Only e-station 's luggable unit is ok

I guess that I shall have to lop off the American plug when the unit gets to Australia

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Post by Jodie »

I offered 160GBP and won one with 50pound postage to Australia.($350 total)

This is the international model with a UK plug.

The seller noted this:
"From what I can see on it, it is a PCS-120 (ECS-16 EVSE) Model with a ECS-16-C5-L12-26 configuration."

ebay item number 171083777707. There is one left.

Good Luck!
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Post by coulomb »

g4qber wrote: Hi coulomb

Please provide link to eBay listing of clipper creek 240v 15a model thanks
As per Jodie's post: Ebay item 171083777707

Edit: That item is expired, but Jodie above says there is one left. Perhaps contact the vendor and see what happens.

Edit 2: At the end of this page, there are links to the manuals. Some of them don't seem to point to the exact right model, sadly.
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Post by g4qber »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgwHtLBA6tg

clipper creek ad

would be interesting to find out if it would trip on the volt.
BMW and Tesla seem to vouch for it.
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Post by g4qber »

Just had a thought for those who don't need portability perhaps we could get one of these in the near future

http://shop.zerocarbonworld.org/charging-stations/

Only thing is that one needs a mennekes to j1772 cable

http://shop.zerocarbonworld.org/cables/
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Post by g4qber »

http://www.pluginnow.com/charging_stations

Bosch seems to be getting into it now

The inductive charging pad looks cool but expect increased power costs
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

Hi,
On the subject of the use of a resistor for coding: The problem I see there is the possibility of a high resistance joint or failure changing the resistance.
Personally I think the use of the timing pulses is quite an easy, reliable solution.
wrt the Volt, if you made an Open EVSE, you could re-program the trip current if the tripping is marginal. (I would not see an issue with going to 32 or 35mA trip current)

I am currently waiting on the kit from the US to build mine.

Has anyone seen the details of the mods done to the Panasonic Miev charger to increase the current? (I am guessing it entails re-programming the processor, & possibly upping the relay size). It would be nice to be able to switch the Panasonic between 9 & 13.5A.

regards Doug
ps: cannot wait to get my Open EVSE going so I can fully charge in under 6H on OffPeak1: atm if fully discharged, it does not seem to 100% charge before the power drops (at 9A peak from MiEV EVSE= ~13Kw). At 13.5A = ~19.5Kw)
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

fyi:
list of chargers available

<http://www.goelectricdrive.com/index.ph ... ev-charger>

regards Doug
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

Anyone going to Indonesia?
<http://www.sale-tools.com/categories/El ... -Chargers/>

regards Doug
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Post by acmotor »

Lismore_Doug wrote: ..... atm if fully discharged, it does not seem to 100% charge before the power drops (at 9A peak from MiEV EVSE= ~13Kw). At 13.5A = ~19.5Kw)


I don't follow the numbers ? 19.5kW ?
iMiEV charger is set in current by EVSE but limits (in the bulk charge time) to 3.3kW on a higher current EVSE (~ 13.8A at 240VAC).

The brick EVSE sets about 9.4A and results in ~ 2.2kW at 240VAC.
If your VAC is higher or lower, the kW changes as the charger is controlled in current.
You can charge the iMiEV from about 90VAC (846W) to ~270VAC (2.5kW) via the '10A' EVSE.
Check the VAC e.g. extention cables will cause losses.

The charge current will start to drop under EV BMU/charger control anywhere above 80-90% charged (SOC) as the battery pack is equalising cell voltages. Probably even more so on a new battery pack ? Nothing wrong there.
Charge time to full top off can be 10% longer than the kWh charging calculation as the power drops towards end of charge.
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

Red,
I was rounding the figures. I have not measured the brick current, but have seen 9A quoted. 9x 6H x 240v= ~13Kw. (6H is the Offpeak time power is available).

The EVSE will power to the current set, or to the car Charger limit, so limiting to 3300W as stated, or about 13.5A, so 6H gives ~19Kw, so fully charges a depleted battery in 6H (counting losses). Of course if the battery is fully charged before 6H, the charger turns off.

I need the full charge for my wife to be able to use the car: she will do 80-90km/day in hilly country. atm it only goes to my work: about 35-50 km/day. I charge about every 2-3 days atm. (3 days had the charge icon flashing, but no turtle)

regards Doug
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Post by weber »

Lismore_Doug wrote: Hi,
On the subject of the use of a resistor for coding: The problem I see there is the possibility of a high resistance joint or failure changing the resistance. Personally I think the use of the timing pulses is quite an easy, reliable solution.
Thanks for responding, Doug.

To answer acmotor's "homework" question. Duty cycle is used in J1772 for communicating current-rating to the EV because resistance/voltage is already in use for communicating charge state from the EV on the same (pilot) wire. By using duty cycle in one direction and resistance/voltage in the other they avoid the need for an additional wire. Resistance/voltage is also used for communicating to the EV on the proximity wire.

And yes, it's more resistant to being fooled by salty water or some such bridging the pins.

I want to make the current-rating automatic and foolproof based on what type of 3 pin plug adapter is used. Otherwise an electrically naive user, e.g. my wife, might use a 10 amp plug adapter to charge at a friend's place but leave the EVSE set to the 15 amp setting we use at home. I might even do that accidentally.

I also want to eliminate the heavy and bulky EVSE that tends to pull the plug partly out of the socket.

The problem with the J1772 duty cycle method is that it requires a +-12 Vdc power supply for the oscillator and relay, which can only be obtained from the 240 Vac mains. This power supply and relay are too big to fit in the back of a plug or inline socket and so would require a box in the short cable of each plug adapter.

By having only a resistor in each plug adapter, I can move the pilot oscillator, relay and their power supply to the handle of the J1772 gun at the car end of the charge cable, as "BetterLeaf" has done here with his "BareEVSE": http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11474. Thanks to Coulomb for finding that.

I would modify BetterLeaf's circuit (the deluxe version with the relay) so that the duty cycle is controlled by a resistor near the other end of the cable, in the plug adapter, connected between a sense wire and earth.

Finally, to address your concern, I would make it so that an increase in resistance causes a decrease in current rating, and I would use resistors in the same range as those used for signalling by J1772, namely around 150 ohms to 3000 ohms, and anything outside that range would be considered an error and result in a zero current rating.

I agree it's not as failsafe as the oscillator. If you can come up with a way for me to fit an oscillator and its power supply in the back of a 3-pin plug I'd love to know about it. Maybe we could feed it power on the same wire it signals on.

[Edit: Or how about using a capacitor in the plug instead of a resistor? Cable capacitance can't be more than 3 nF. 2% film caps in the range 100 nF to 1.0 uF are available in a small enough size.]
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Post by acmotor »

Good about the homework Image

So, moving the EVSE to J1772 plug like this charge amps J1772 and adding your resistor encoding at the plug end for different current supplies.

The problem is that that leaves mains power in the cable and plug BEFORE the J1772 is connected to the EV. Avoiding this was one of the very design criteria of J1772.
Chargeamps J1772 plug is only IP44 and live. A step backwards on the original J1772 standard already. (EVSE J1772 plug is IP54 and along with cable from the EVSE is inert until handshakes done with EV after insertion and then IP67)
Also, as you point out, current selection has to be correct for supply. At least the Chargeamps unit defaults to 6A each time it is powered up. But don't put it in a puddle ! OK so that may damage the plug internals and trip the ELCB in a locked cabinet somewhere in the building after perhaps a nasty bite.

You really need to get a dual pole contactor at the 3 pin plug end to make the cable/connector safe.

Perhaps making a better ELCB arrangement where the ELCB is the power down contactor in the first place may help ? It becomes rather like an EVSE in the end.

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Post by weber »

acmotor wrote: Good about the homework Image

So, moving the EVSE to J1772 plug like this charge amps J1772 and adding your resistor encoding at the plug end for different current supplies
Right. Or capacitor coding. At the AS3112 plug end.

For the charge cable that lives in the boot, I'm planning to allow swapping between a 10 A plug and a 15 A plug (AS3112) by using a 4-pin NEMA L14-30 as the common coupling, similar to the way Tesla Motors did it with their Universal Mobile Connector for the Roadster.

Image

In this case the resistor or capacitor would be in the inline NEMA socket on each short adapter lead. The charge cable that stays at home could have a fixed 15 A plug in which case the fourth wire would come right into that (AS3112) plug and the resistor or capacitor would be in there.
The problem is that that leaves mains power in the cable and plug BEFORE the J1772 is connected to the EV. Avoiding this was one of the very design criteria of J1772.
A relay inside the J1772 plug will ensure the EV doesn't see mains voltage until it asks for it. I expect the Chargeamps does the same.

As for having mains voltage in the cable. That's a complete non-issue. You have this when you plug your EVSE into an extension lead. There must be a million extension leads around Australia that have this 24/7.
But don't put it in a puddle !
The J1772 won't be live, due to the relay in the handle, but your extension lead inline socket will be live. How often have you dropped one of those in a puddle?
OK so that may damage the plug internals and trip the ELCB in a locked cabinet somewhere in the building after perhaps a nasty bite.
First a note on terminology. It's best to use the term RCD (or for Americans, GFCI) to avoid confusion with the older voltage operated device called an ELCB. We haven't used those in Australia for some decades now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_leak ... it_breaker

You will have noticed that the combination RCD/MCBs for my charging outlets are outdoors beside the outlets, as they are in the "powerheads" of caravan parks and marinas.
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Post by coulomb »

Lismore_Doug wrote: ... have seen 9A quoted. 9x 6H x 240v= ~13Kw.

This is the source of the "numbers" confusion. You quoted the current as 9 A (nine amperes, commonly called nine amps), but dropped the "A" in your calculation, and left the "h" out of the result. You are multiplying amperes (A) times time in hours (h) times the voltage in volts (V). So you get VAh as the result. V times A = W (watts) when the power factor is near unity, as it is for these chargers. So the answer is also in Wh. Usually the number is in the thousands, so we divide by 1000 and use the unit kWh (kilowatt-hours). This is the unit for electrical energy. That's what you get charged for on your electricity bill.

You wrote 13 kW (case corrected), which is power. You charge at the rate of about 2.2 kW for 6 hours, which results in about 13 kWh of energy being transferred to the battery (neglecting losses).

It's a very common mistake, but sometimes, as above, it leads to confusion.
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Post by Jeff Owen »

Surely, if an extension lead is to be used with a portable EVSE, it must be a J1772 extension lead between the EVSE and the car.
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Post by acmotor »

Jeff Owen wrote: Surely, if an extension lead is to be used with a portable EVSE, it must be a J1772 extension lead between the EVSE and the car.

Probably so, It would at least be all IP67 then. However not actually done comes to mind ! Actually, dread the thought !

The mains extension lead could have an IP67 screw on socket on it to match the one on the portable EVSE input plug ? Keep in mind that it rains and the ground is mud in some parts of the world. We can't all do sunny day charging. And the RCD/ELCB/GFIRXXSIWNLLA rose by any other name won't stop the bite.Image
This still doesn't solve the problem of the live extension lead before EV connected.

I repeat this point:
The LEAD and the INSIDE of the J1772 plug (not pins) of the chargeamps EVSE is live and only IP44 both before and after EV connection. That is not the intent of the J1772 standard and it WILL cause problems.

You can see there are reasons why the EV manf. just say 'no extension leads'. Probably knowing full well that we will use them.
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Post by acmotor »

weber wrote:
As for having mains voltage in the cable. That's a complete non-issue. You have this when you plug your EVSE into an extension lead. There must be a million extension leads around Australia that have this 24/7.


I can't get that point through can I ? Image
It does matter that there is power in the cable and connector prior to connecting to the EV. When it is raining, when the cable gets damaged, when the cable is not plugged into the EV, just laying around. Yes, perhaps because you forgot to turn it off at the wall.

Try another direction....
Research the electrical policy on the use of extention leads by local institutions, Shire, electrical authorities with respect to outdoor use, use in wet areas etc.
I can save you the trouble for a university for instance. The answer is no to external or wet area use. For good reason. 'Get away with' is not best practice.   
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Post by weber »

acmotor wrote:I can't get that point through can I ? Image
It does matter that there is power in the cable and connector prior to connecting to the EV. When it is raining, when the cable gets damaged, when the cable is not plugged into the EV, just laying around. Yes, perhaps because you forgot to turn it off at the wall.
What amazes me is that you think anyone would take you seriously on this point when you happily admit to using a non-J1772 extension lead yourself to charge your EV, when you could have bought a J1772 extension lead instead.
Try another direction....
Research the electrical policy on the use of extention leads by local institutions, Shire, electrical authorities with respect to outdoor use, use in wet areas etc.
I can save you the trouble for a university for instance. The answer is no to external or wet area use. For good reason. 'Get away with' is not best practice.

You'll excuse me if I don't just take your word for that. The first such policy I turned up in a search, is this from the University of Tasmania. http://www.utas.edu.au/__data/assets/pd ... kplace.pdf As far as I know it's not always dry and sunny down there.

I don't see any prohibitions. I see "All extension leads and power tools that are being used in a dangerous situation should be used through either fixed or portable residual current devices." Guess what the abbreviation for "residual current device" is? Image

I also see "Extension cords must be kept in good condition and be inspected regularly via a visual inspection by the user to ensure that the cord's good condition is maintained." And of course it mentions "testing and tagging" and many other sensible precautions, but no prohibition on outdoor use.

I'd be interested to read your university's policy.

Dropping an extension socket in water or mud will trip the RCD before anyone can get "bitten". In the extremely unlikely event that someone does get a "bite" before the RCD trips, it is not fatal. But it is an effective reminder not to do that again, whatever it was.
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Post by weber »

Here's another guy who has not only seen through the mindless analogy of "Internal combustion cars need fuel stations so electric cars need charge stations" but has come up with some brilliant solutions for people whose EVs have been crippled by being forced to take their level 1 or low-powered level 2 charges through J1772 or Mennekes.

He calls it APRS for "A Practical Recharging System".

For 90% of its charging needs, an EV is no different from any other mobile outdoor 240 Vac appliance, like say an outdoor vacuum cleaner with a retracting cord.

Image

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the J1772 emperor has no clothes. Oh wait! ...

It's signed, "Bob Bruninga, IEEE National Committee on Transportation and Aerospace".

Onya Bob!
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Post by Johny »

I LOVE this guy's ideas. Unfortunately I think it won't help much because every man and his dog will want to (sorry "is") make money selling EVSEs and power "plans" to totally confuse the issue.

I can't wait until some government dude wakes up to the idea of selling special electricity to EV owners and puts a "fuel tax" on it. I'll just keep my head down....
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Post by bladecar »

Johny,
It has already been suggested to me that an EVSE's main purpose is for future tax collection by being able to be read by the supplier.

That's the only reason why I am forced to occasionally question AC's determination... And he IS determined.

But, what if I just want to use my 3-pin plug. AC, can I? can I?

The Government is not going to miss out on its take (when petroleum products do such a fine job) so it's not hard to see this.

What a bugger if we could put 4 litre petrol tins on the roof and, on a nice sunny day, 9 or them would be filled (in place of buying it from the servo). Shouldn't we then argue for a standardised process of having mini-service-stations, complete with replica fuel pumps at the side of each house.   Think how safe that would be, instead of lugging those petrol tins around and potentially spilling them.

Yes, we do carry jugs of hot water occasionally, but it's not the same.
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Post by acmotor »

So perhaps the anti EVSE club is driven by a fear of taxation ? I hadn't thought of that. I was just thinking that folk couldn't understand safety. Image

Yes, the govt will have to change revenue streams. Not for a few years yet so we can just enjoy our EVs. After all, they haven't put road tax on LPG yet.

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