What an EVSE provides

Post by **weber** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 06:50

acmotor wrote: Tell Mrs Weber that she can buy an EVSE from holden for $350 while you try to re-invent the wheel with lesser features.

Tell your grandmother how to suck eggs. That wouldn't happen to be the EVSE that is limited to 6 amps that started this thread would it?

Post by **g4qber** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 07:09

When plugged into imiev or leaf the holden EVSE outputs around 10A, it is just that the volt defaults to 6A to be safe
then the user has to select 10A

if the volt has a EVSE that negotiates 15A with it, the 6 and 10A options are not operational, even though the touch screen buttons are present.
the way to determine which level the volt is charging is to look at the time to complete.
eg.
6 hours at 10a
10 hrs at 6a
4 hrs at 15a

note that only 10kWh is usable on the volt in EV mode
hence it only costs $2.50 to charge and some people wonder why the volt charges so much faster.
4 hrs vs 8 hrs for the leaf/imiev

Post by **acmotor** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 07:13

I understand the Volt EVSE does 6A and 10A.
The Volt vehicle itself defaults to 6A but the user can upselect to 10A on the touch screen.
Joseph can you confirm that ? What current did the volt EVSE supply to iMiEV when you tested it ?

edit: typing at the same time !!

edit: $350 seems a poultry sum for an EVSE with J1772 connector

Post by **g4qber** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 07:15

the BMW i3 is supposed to be about the same size as the imiev and cost a fortune due to carbon fibre
I suppose one is willing to pay for beauty and less weight
apple is testament to this.

the imiev is like Dr Who's TARDIS. doesn't look like much but it does the job
the Master's functional chameleon circuit TARDIS looks better.
the imiev is also like a PC; it does the job and is for the masses.

BMWs are like Macs and you pay for the privilege

Jordan at MacWorx Joondalup commented that it is quite big on the inside.

Post by **g4qber** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 07:21

the holden EVSE outputs around 10A to the imiev and Brian's leaf

the betterplace mennekes to j1772 cable also doesn't have a hole for a padlock.

http://shop.zerocarbonworld.org/cables/ ... cable.html

200 pounds for a cable, holy @!# batman.

this is the Master cable lock
http://www.bunnings.com.au/products_pro ... 20338.aspx

i need to use the correct term "coupler" in future. i had been calling it the trigger.
http://www.ittcannon.com/download/sample/647

personally i prefer the yazaki grey 32A as it is lighter.
check out the damage to this coupler though.
http://www.plugincars.com/why-baltimore ... 27614.html

Post by **g4qber** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 07:39

http://www.pluglesspower.com/

who needs couplers when we have inductive charging?
but there is power loss

i guess that this is similar to wifi vs cable.
if you want speed / no power loss, plug it in.

Post by **g4qber** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 13:07

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor. ... 450017732E

Ross blade with j1772 connector in picture.

Not sure if electron needs an evse or behaves like 2010 imiev

Post by **Jodie** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 15:59

For $300,(ebay no. 171083777707) there are a couple of Clipper Creek 240V 16A EVSE's

Is anyone familiar with ECS-16-C5-L12-26 configuration on this model?

Post by **weber** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 17:54

acmotor wrote: I understand the Volt EVSE does ... 10A.

So why would the "wise Mrs Weber" pay any money for yet another device whose job is to prevent her Leaf from charging at its full 15 A?

edit: $350 seems a poultry sum for an EVSE with J1772 connector

Those must be expensive chickens.

Post by **acmotor** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 21:04

There is just no pleasing some people !!

Agreed that 15A charging is desirable at times.

It does remind us that the Leaf needs to charge on 15A for the same amount of time as an iMiEV charging on 10A to do the same range.

As a matter of interest, in the pic of your PV and EVs, what was the PV output on the overcast day compared to the charging EVs ? Will you EV charge during the day to use actual PV power ? What is your thinking there ?

Post by **weber** » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 21:39

acmotor wrote:As a matter of interest, in the pic of your PV and EVs, what was the PV output on the overcast day compared to the charging EVs ?

Don't know. Sorry. The total nominal PV array power is 6.5 kW. It should average about 20 kWh per day over the year (I have a winter shading problem to the west). The Leaf battery is 24 kWh, but I expect its average daily charge requirement to be less than 8 kWh. And the rest of the household will probably chew up the other 12 kWh per day (two teenagers).

Will you EV charge during the day to use actual PV power ? What is your thinking there ?

So long as we're still getting paid 50c/kWh for net exports to the grid, we're not planning to charge during the day. But we're being good network citizens and avoiding the evening peak too -- only charging between 10 pm and 7 am using the Leaf's charge timer, even though this doesn't save us any money since it's on the non-time-of-use general domestic tariff.

Post by **acmotor** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 01:15

Makes sense. Sort of.
Just musing the numbers... tell me if I've got it wrong. I know you won't hesitate.

Using WA prices...
I charge EV offpeak 9pm to 7am (timer set to 11pm to 6am) at 14.5559c/kWh
You charge EV at 29.403c/kWh in QLD yes ?

You export 8kWh (say) at 50c/kWh = $4 (is the a GST component ?)
You buy back 8kWh to charge EV at 29.403c/kWh = $2.35 so you are ahead by $1.65, good.

The same 8kWh costs me $1.16 off peak.
So $2.35 - $1.16 = $1.19 more for your charge. You get $1.65 back so all up you are 46c per day ahead. (don't spend it all at once!)

I can see why you don't want to pay money for an EVSE !!! The economics as they stand of PV aren't that friendly.
It seems the 50c/kWh is not that generous !

Post by **weber** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 02:03

acmotor wrote: Makes sense. Sort of.
Just musing the numbers... tell me if I've got it wrong. I know you won't hesitate.

Using WA prices...
<Hypothetical calculations deleted>

I fail to see how this comparison is useful given that WA and QLD tariff structures are different, and I'm not sure it has any bearing on the topic of this thread. Rest assured that I have done the relevant calculations for QLD. You also need to consider the fixed daily service fees and the regulations about what can and can't be connected to various tariffs.

I can see why you don't want to pay money for an EVSE !!! The economics as they stand of PV aren't that friendly.
It seems the 50c/kWh is not that generous !

A non sequitur. You appear to continually fail to see why I don't want to even have an EVSE, let alone pay money for one. I'd pay money to not be required to have one, and I'm working on it.

Post by **acmotor** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 04:24

Yes but you do have an EVSE already ! Hanging on the fencing wire alongside your meter box.

If I keep stirring you will come up with an open source $10 EVSE... or give in and buy a commercial model for your Leaf.

Nice side step on the PV feed in topic ! Yes, off topic. But you get economic point ? I would add that the power authorities will increase the very supply charge you allude to to eventually make the 46c disappear too ! I'm not against PVs, I have some and a WT, It is just that the economics are not that rosey.

Post by **weber** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 04:50

Acmotor, have you ever plugged your portable EVSE into an extension lead?

Post by **coulomb** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 04:55

weber wrote: Acmotor, have you ever plugged your portable EVSE into an extension lead?

The evidence suggests that Acmotor at least has the means...

Post by **g4qber** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 04:55

Clipper creek is 120v 15a

I am so glad I don't live in America where their power is rubbish.

Post by **Adverse Effects** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 05:20

g4qber wrote: Clipper creek is 120v 15a

I am so glad I don't live in America where their power is rubbish.

its like 1/10th the price compared to here

well maby not 1/10th but its a hell of a lot cheaper there

a friend in the usa has a EV and it costs him 30c(his math not mine) to charge it from flat

Post by **bladecar** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 05:21

AC,

Weber has an evse because he must have one. He doesn't want one. This is what I am saying.

Because the power authorities (the Government acting as a corporation - never mind that we are the shareholders as well as the customers), but probably eventually a corporation acting as a corporation (which will have a select group of shareholders (and perhaps no shareholders if they make enough money to buy back shares - depends on competition (like fuel and supermarkets) and whether the government of the time thinks that it is good for the population to not be involved in power production) - in time, if either side stay in power

, the power authorities will always win and they will reduce the tariff for solar, maybe to nothing, and prices will rise anyway. When this happens, anyone with panels (and possibly roofs painted with power-generating compounds), will naturally charge their cars during the day (no point being loyal to a disloyal power company (should this happen

) and anything else they have.
Then it will become worth it, and probably easier, to store any excess solar-generated power.
Naturally, the authorities, not wishing to be seen to raise taxes, but instead to milk the power companies (and blame it on other costs) will have to raise the price of power (because of all these electric cars using their power (not) and the general population will agree with the power companies and be unhappy, and vote the government which can best convince the non-ev population that they can best 'fix' the situation.

Think it would make a novel? Oh well, maybe the next one.

So, AC, if you could get an evse with your car (because it comes with one anyway (standard equipment)) or use a 32amp single-phase plug and charge at 20 amps because that's what you choose, what would be wrong with that? would be wrong with that? wrong with that? ?

And why do you care so much? If you'd invented the aeroplane, they could not have flown, until they were safe enough - for the future of the aeroplane industry,... it seems.

Post by **acmotor** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 06:32

bladecar wrote:
So, AC, if you could get an evse with your car (because it comes with one anyway (standard equipment)) or use a 32amp single-phase plug and charge at 20 amps because that's what you choose, what would be wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that, as long as the safety and standardisation is up to scratch. In fact if you use a standard like J1772 you'd be covered !
I have said time and time again that the safety features and standardisation of an EVSE are to be respected (like every production EV sold in Oz so far uses it). If you DIY that's fine. The J1772 standard is there in your face. There are open source kits etc. There is public charging to that standard. The world may go for another standard altogether in the end, but it will always be better than a domestic 3 pin plug and lead ! (...just picturing a Leaf with a caravan plug on the nose

)

Who said 20A, not me ? Leaf and iMiEV max is 15A. edit: next Leaf 32A ?

Extension lead ? Yes is the answer, as coulomb posted.
Follow my signature for the full docc on the myth busting of extn. leads. Actually, I don't normally use one.

I was assured by weber that it was fine to plug into any 10A sockets etc.

Post by **acmotor** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 06:40

bladecar wrote:
And why do you care so much? If you'd invented the aeroplane, they could not have flown, until they were safe enough - for the future of the aeroplane industry,... it seems.

?? Production EVs have not been held up by safety standards for charging ? J1772 was engineered and they got on with EVs. I don't get your point.
Having an emotional resistance to the technology of EVSEs may be a hold up. You are right there.

Post by **bladecar** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 07:31

AC, I think a few of us have differing opinions on our best future.
No problem. Goodnight.

Post by **weber** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 15:05

acmotor wrote:Extension lead ? Yes is the answer, as coulomb posted.
Follow my signature for the full docc on the myth busting of extn. leads. Actually, I don't normally use one.

The portable EVSE that comes with the Leaf has a tag on its cord near the plug saying "Don't use an extension cord or adapter" in 6 different languages. So the myth you're busting comes via the car manufacturers, and good on you for busting it. With the switchboard and wiring standards we have in Australia it is indeed little more than paranoia.

Acmotor, if or when you use your portable EVSE without an extension lead, and the powerpoint is more than 600 mm from the ground or floor, do you consider it unsafe the way the weight of the EVSE tends to pull the plug partway out of the socket?

I don't expect you to agree, but I hope other readers can see that if it's OK to plug your EVSE into an extension lead, the logical conclusion is that it would also be OK to have the EVSE built into the car, in which case the combination of J1772 EVSE controller and J1772 EV controller could be replaced by a simple interface in the car for choosing how much current to draw.

To make this foolproof it could be based on resistor-coded plug adapters as I suggested, using a fourth wire that I will call the "sense" wire from now on, to avoid confusion with the J1772 pilot wire, and to suggest that it makes more "sense" than tying a brick to your plug.

Post by **g4qber** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 15:12

http://www.clippercreek.com/products.html

Clipper creek does seem to make 240v 15a evses.

One had to be wary of the ones on eBay as they may be 120v 15a.
Until today I hadn't come across the 240v model

Post by **g4qber** » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 15:16

Perhaps those who don't like evse bricks could buy the 2010 imiev. This doesn't come with an evse.
It is might be similar to Ross blade's j1772 electrons. I shall email him about this.