Alternative to Headway cells

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Faz
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Alternative to Headway cells

Post by Faz »

Has anybody used Fullriver Lithium cells?
I'm looking at these: Part number130160160Fe      

http://www.fentbattery.com/en/Cylindrical.asp?id=452

I've just had a quote on the flat 20Ah cells: $35USDea for QTY of 100.
The spec sheet claims a discharge current of 10C, peak of 30C.
They are 160mm x 160mm x 13mm excluding tabs and weigh 600g.

I've recently purchased some full river Lead AGM batteries and the quality seems good. Was wondering if anyone here has looked at these cells before?
Last edited by Faz on Wed, 10 Aug 2011, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.
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gmacd33
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Alternative to Headway cells

Post by gmacd33 »

That's $1.75/Ah, which seems fairly expensive. I have a contact who can get Headways for $1.30/Ah, but for a pack of 14kWh.

I'd be dubious about relying on datasheets - Thundersky (Winston) datasheets quote 20C max current, and we all know that's bogus for anything useful.

How far do you plan to drive on that 6.4kWh pack by the way?!?
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Post by jonescg »

Pouch cells (the flat ones) are always going to be better in the long run, in my opinion as they offer more energy density on a volume basis. The C rates are going to be a bit higher than cylindrical cells, but the higher the capacity of the cell the lower the C rate will be.

But $35 US each for a 20 Ah cell is pretty darn cheap. I'd be wondering about their QC. If they stand up to some testing, I'd say go for them!
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Alternative to Headway cells

Post by Faz »

gmacd33 wrote: That's $1.75/Ah, which seems fairly expensive. I have a contact who can get Headways for $1.30/Ah, but for a pack of 14kWh.

I'd be dubious about relying on datasheets - Thundersky (Winston) datasheets quote 20C max current, and we all know that's bogus for anything useful.

How far do you plan to drive on that 6.4kWh pack by the way?!?
Headway are $2.50/Ah (10Ah cell) excluding shipping anywhere I've seen them. If you have a source that will sell them cheaper than the price of (only ~2C capable) Thundersky you are extremely lucky. Most people aren't that lucky.

I don't plan to drive anywhere. I would never put headway or similar capacity cells ie: <20aH in any car, just due to BMS cost and complexity. In a motorcycle however well that's a different story. Image
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Post by gmacd33 »

Headway are $2.50/Ah (10Ah cell) excluding shipping anywhere I've seen them. If you have a source that will sell them cheaper than the price of (only ~2C capable) Thundersky you are extremely lucky. Most people aren't that lucky.
Thundersky are $1.30/Ah for full size pack from EV Works: http://evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-LFP100AHA

If anybody wants the contact details for the Headway supplier I can give them to you.
I don't plan to drive anywhere. I would never put headway or similar capacity cells ie: <20aH in any car, just due to BMS cost and complexity. In a motorcycle however well that's a different story. Image

If you put say 5 of 20Ah cells in parallel, that is exactly the same as a single 100Ah cell as far as BMS cost and complexity is concerned. (You just need a few extra interconnecting copper tabs, which come with the cells anyway.)
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Post by Faz »

gmacd33 wrote:
Thundersky are $1.30/Ah for full size pack from EV Works: http://evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-LFP100AHA
They're $1.43/Ah (QTY 45+), the prices on evworks are ex GST.
If anybody wants the contact details for the Headway supplier I can give them to you.
I'm very interested. Is the price of $1.30Ah exclusive of shipping from china or is that landed in Australia?
If you put say 5 of 20Ah cells in parallel, that is exactly the same as a single 100Ah cell as far as BMS cost and complexity is concerned. (You just need a few extra interconnecting copper tabs, which come with the cells anyway.)
True, but doesn't manage the charge/discharge of each cell, I wouldn't feel comfortable grouping that many together. BMS aside connecting 450 Headways (10Ah) together to make a 14k4Wh pack seems like too much work for me!!!
Last edited by Faz on Thu, 11 Aug 2011, 10:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jonescg »

Paralleling cells to increase capacity doesn't change their charge/discharge characteristics at all, unless the capacities and internal resistances of the cells are way off. Provided these are all in spec, then you can put as many in parallel as you like. If you're building a bike, then I'd say don't go with Chunderskys, go for prismatic cells; the bigger the capacity the better (less complexity) but if you need to, paralleling them is fine.
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Post by Faz »

I already ruled out Thundersky because of the low C rating. Its just not possible to fit enough on a bike and get reasonable power (without panniers).
The concern I have with paralleling many cells is I've not seen any info concerning the differences in cells from the one manufacturer. I would be concerned that with many charge/discharge cycles problems may arise. Perhaps I'm being over cautious.

edit: On a side note the full river flat cells are only 600g/20Ah Headway are 350g/10Ah plus screws for the terminals.
That is an extra 10kg on a 6k4Wh pack!
Last edited by Faz on Thu, 11 Aug 2011, 10:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Richo »

Would be interested to know what the fullriver internal impedance is.
No point pulling 10C if the voltage drops to 1.5V.
Also there is no cycle life info.
I do like the poly bags better as they use less room.
Headway plastic mounting end caps ARE crap.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Faz »

They do show a discharge graph plotting cell voltage vs capacity @ 10C.
Take it with a grain of salt but on the graph the cell voltage maintains around 2.9V.

So are you anti-Headway Rich? What do you consider the overall quality of the cell to be like?
If I could get Headway cells for $1.30/Ah I would most likely go with them.
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Post by jonescg »

'Tis true, the cost is a major factor for many builds.
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Post by antiscab »

Faz wrote: I already ruled out Thundersky because of the low C rating. Its just not possible to fit enough on a bike and get reasonable power (without panniers).


How much power are you after?
how much battery can you fit?

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Post by Faz »

For a usable bike (ie: needs to be able to overtake without taking hours needs to get to speed quickly and be able to do more than 100km/h) I think you need about 30kW peak.
Even using the lightest of cells a 6kWh pack is going to be about 60kg. An engine/gearbox from a 250cc bike weighs about the same. Add the 15-20kg for the motor and more for the controller and you are quickly over the initial weight of the bike.
6kWh of lithium takes up anywhere from 40-50 Litres. Taking into account not all of the room within the bikes ferrings is going to be usable due to form factor of the cells, I don't think much more can easily fit.
So Short answer 6kWh's of battery with a peak power of 30kW's.
With 6kWh's I need a "reliable" 5C or more and I expect I will be using at least 2C almost all the time.
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Post by jonescg »

LiPo from Turnigy will come in as the cheapest, most energy dense battery going. It's also a bit more dangerous. But a 7.5 kWh pack will barely weigh 60 kg, and the C rate is like 40 or something... The 5 ah pouches are about $11 each (3.7 V nominal). They are small format, so you can stack 'em, pack 'em any way you want. Parallel them to get more capacity, have balance taps to balance charge them, have no BMS is at all possible since BMS + LiPo = 90% chance of fail.
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Post by Johny »

A tad dangerous to put that may Lipos in one place without a BMS. The RC guys don't get much life out of Lipos so without the careful temperature and current control strategies such as those in vehicles like the Tesla I can't see them lasting long either - IMO.
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Post by gmacd33 »

Headway supplier is as follows, at $1.30/Ah for 450 of 10Ah cells:

Jason
Hipower New Energy Group Co.,Ltd.
ADD: HiPower Industrial Park, NO.1 Tianan Rd, Hi-Tech Development District, Zaozhuang, Shandong, China
Skype: jasonlujun
MSN: lllf.nc.jun@163.com
Email: hipowergroup.jason@gmail.com
TEL: 86(0)755 2303 7559
FAX: 86(0)755 2303 7556
Cell phone: 86(0)136 3287 3384
WEB: www.hipowergroup.com

Apparently he is from Hipower, but can supply Headways as well. I haven't bought from him myself, so I would urge you to do your own due diligence checking before making a decision.

Prices are excl shipping, customs etc
Pricing is dependant on volume.
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Post by Faz »

Johny wrote: A tad dangerous to put that may Lipos in one place without a BMS.


Agreed, there is something about having +50kg of Lipo between my legs that I find worrying!!! Image
Don't think I'd go Lipo on a bike.
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Post by antiscab »

Faz wrote: For a usable bike (ie: needs to be able to overtake without taking hours needs to get to speed quickly and be able to do more than 100km/h) I think you need about 30kW peak.


Thats fair,

my Vectrix's 140V 60Ah pack gives me 225A@128v (motor controller limited)

but I had 90kg to play with.
I get lotsa range though.

12kw continuous is needed for 110kmh continuous


I would suggest looking at a 600 frame,
the hyosung frame comes to mind

The Roehr guys fit 90 x headway 10Ah cells in there, but if you went with a motorbike class hub motor (20kw+) you could probably fit in 90Ah @ 140v.

might be a bit heavy, but good for more country runs :D

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Post by Richo »

Faz wrote: They do show a discharge graph plotting cell voltage vs capacity @ 10C.
Take it with a grain of salt but on the graph the cell voltage maintains around 2.9V.

Yeah I did see that but 1.5mR does seem over zealous.
Faz wrote: So are you anti-Headway Rich? What do you consider the overall quality of the cell to be like?
No I do quite like the cells.
Out of a batch of 100 they were all within 0.1V of each other on arrival.
The Internal impedance seemed quite consistant as well.
The down sides are slight corrosion on one end which has the bent steel terminal.
The other is the lack of convenience of mounting a cyclindrical cell.
The plastic mouinting end tabs from headway broke the first time I used them.
This is because the plastic type is wrong and the cell ends are slightly different diameter due to the construction.
Also they have posts which make it darn near impossible to mount a bus bar connecting the cells.

I was thinking of a polycarb sheet with holes and an o-ring.
But making an o-ring grove won't be easy.
Seems lithbattboss's endcaps don't fit - last I heard anyway.
Faz wrote: If I could get Headway cells for $1.30/Ah I would most likely go with them.

I would just get more Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by lithbattboss »

Richo wrote:
Faz wrote: They do show a discharge graph plotting cell voltage vs capacity @ 10C.
Take it with a grain of salt but on the graph the cell voltage maintains around 2.9V.

Yeah I did see that but 1.5mR does seem over zealous.
Faz wrote: So are you anti-Headway Rich? What do you consider the overall quality of the cell to be like?
No I do quite like the cells.
Out of a batch of 100 they were all within 0.1V of each other on arrival.
The Internal impedance seemed quite consistant as well.
The down sides are slight corrosion on one end which has the bent steel terminal.
The other is the lack of convenience of mounting a cyclindrical cell.
The plastic mouinting end tabs from headway broke the first time I used them.

Seems lithbattboss's endcaps don't fit - last I heard anyway.

Image
ImageImage

Not sure why my blocks won't fit since my cells are the same dimensions as a Headway cell and I have the blocks in both sizes for 38mm and 40mm diameter cells?
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Post by gmacd33 »

Lithbattboss's endcaps do fit - I have tested them with Lifetech and Headway cells, which are both the same size.

You can also get 2-cell and 3-cell holders from Manzanita Micro:
http://manzanitamicro.com/products?page ... gory_id=29
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Post by Richo »

gmacd33 wrote: You can also get 2-cell and 3-cell holders from Manzanita Micro:
http://manzanitamicro.com/products?page ... gory_id=29


Yep I have a box here of the 3-way.
They crack.
Also the standard bus-bar doesn't fit between the posts on one block.
They have to go from one holder to a different holder.
Which is a pain in the ar*? for irregular shapes as in a motorbike.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by gmacd33 »

That's interesting that the 3-cell holders crack - under what conditions? From cold, or severe loading, or something else?

Does anyone know if the 2-cell holders are any better?

I'm getting a sample of both the 2-cell and 3-cell holders sent to me within a week or so - will see how they hold up...
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