Group buy of impressive PHET Lifepo cells

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mattW
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Group buy of impressive PHET Lifepo cells

Post by mattW » Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 04:47

Hey guys,
In case you are interested in an alternative to thundersky with more credibility (testing and warranty) and much higher discharge rates, there is a group buy being organised on DIY Electric Car for the not to decent future. There are no prices so far but it looks like the base price is around $2.54 per Ah per 3.2V cylindrical cell, without a group discount which should drop the price. Their independent testing has shown around 3000 cycles to 75% capacity at 2C/1C discharge/charge and the guy organising the sale had the following to say about them:

"Just an update on the cells. I finally made contact with the owner of the company in Taiwan. We are having trouble emailing each other so he finally called me. Long story short, I will be offering the cells that they produce on an automated system. (No hand built thundersky modules) These cells use a patented powder that is also used by A123. In independent testing they have a continuous draw of 10c with a burst of 18sec at 40c. These are conservative numbers as Mr. Pihsaing assures me they can handle much more. I will have full documentation as soon as we figure out why my email keeps rejecting there emails to me. These are the batteries used by lifebatt."

If anyone in Australia is keen, we could probably get on the same group discount and just pay our own shipping. Let me know if you are keen, even if its just a preliminary nibble. The group buy thread is here

Cheers,
Matt

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lithbattboss
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Group buy of impressive PHET Lifepo cells

Post by lithbattboss » Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 07:11

Hi Matt,
I am the Australian National Distributor for BMI/LiFeBATT (based in Sydney).
Regarding the comments made on the US forum, I can tell you that PHET cells are definitely not made in the same factory as the LiFeBATT cells. BMI/LiFeBATT and PHET are two separate and very distinct companies. What they share in common is that both companies buy the cathode powder for the manufacture of their respective cells from Phostech Canada. Phostech own the patent rights to the LiFePO4 technology.
Both companies produce legitimate cells of very good performance and quality.
I can tell you that A123 definitely do not use cathode powder supplied by Phostech. Phostech sued A123 Systems for patent infringement and the final legal bill alone came to over US$20million. Phostech won the case in the end and as a result all manufacturing contracts for A123 cells and DeWalt DC9360 cordless drill batteries which were made in China were cancelled. This resulted in A123 being forced to move their manufacturing of their 26650 cells in recent months to the USA. As a result the price of DeWalt cordless tool batteries has skyrocketed. Model aircraft hobbyists have been well known for buying up DeWalt battery packs on ebay so as to have a source of A123 cells to build into their own custom battery packs. Twelve months ago a DeWalt DC9360 battery could be bought for well under $100. The current price for the same packs is around $150 as can be seen by a quick check on ebay.
Matt, I hope you have found the above information to be informative!!
Last edited by lithbattboss on Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

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mattW
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Group buy of impressive PHET Lifepo cells

Post by mattW » Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 18:13

Thanks that is really helpful, apparently the engineers at PHET were saying that the best way to do these packs were to assemble 18650 cells into packs, the only problem is its going to cost $6 per cell for an assembled pack. I has hoping for $3 Image . How much would a 72V 60Ah pack of life lifebatts cost?
Last edited by mattW on Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 08:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Group buy of impressive PHET Lifepo cells

Post by lithbattboss » Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 19:39

Hi Matt,
I visited a large supplier of electric wheelchairs, mobility scooters and the like recently with a view to sell them LiFePO4 batteries to replace the lead acid batteries they currently use in these electric vehicles. To my surprise I noticed they already had a couple of PHET mobility scooter LiFePO4 packs. The owner of the store told me he was not very happy with them as he had seen some failures in these batteries after less than 12 months use. The PHET cells, although being tiny 18650 cells are very good. I believe the failures are caused not as a result of bad cells but because of fatigue occurring in the spot welded battery tabs. When you consider all the pot holes, bumps and rough roads these vehicles experience daily, it is little wonder that over time cell battery tabs can fail due to metal fatigue. To my way of thinking it makes much more sense to use fewer large cells rather than a great number of tiny 18650 cells with so many more inter-cell connections.
I like the general rule of less terminal connections = greater battery reliability (and less possibility of high resistance joints forming).
What’s more, I have previously contacted PHET to ask if they have a larger size cell than the several models of 18650 cells they currently produce. The reply I received quite amazed me. They told me that they only make the 18650 size LiFePO4 cells because “it is not safe to make them in any larger size”. Can you believe that! We know that LiFePO4 is the safest lithium ion chemistry available so why would a large cell be less safe than a small one?
Anyway Matt I would be more than happy to give you a price and information on the larger high power series (HPS) 10Ah BMI/Lifebatt cells or complete EV batteries with remote diagnostics built into the battery BMS which can have the battery perform an auto check every day. If a bad cell is found to be developing in any pack the battery will send you an SMS to your phone or email you in advance and let you know exactly which cell in which battery pack requires attention!
If you want to get a group purchase together I should be able to get a reasonable price from the factory. Of course bear in mind that the cells I supply are the highest quality cells available and utilise A-grade cathode material in their construction supplied by Phostech Lithium so royalties are paid on these genuine cells which is why they cost more than poorer performing Chinese made cells. The bright side is that our cells are much cheaper in the long run when you consider they have been shown to have a working life of greater then 7000 cycles as can be verified from independent testing performed by the US Department of Energy. The other great thing about our large cells is that since they have M6 threaded stud mount terminals, if a cell fails some time down the track it is easy to unbolt the faulty cell from the pack and simply replace it with a good one. Much harder to replace when the cell is welded in position! If you would like some data/specification, general information or photos please feel free to drop me an email at info@lifebatt.com.au or give me a call at Lithium Batteries Australia on 0420948757 at any time.

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Group buy of impressive PHET Lifepo cells

Post by Greg » Fri, 20 Jun 2008, 04:15

Reading through the group buy mattW linked to further leads to a run out clearance of LiFeBATT cells for $30US each (3.3V 10Ah).

I'm planning to get some, the more Aussies the better for shipping I expect. They look like good cells. But too often these plans tend to evaporate.....

See here http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lifepo4-purchase/

And a basic extract of the plan follows.

LiFePo4 Group Buy

This is a very limited time offer for anyone interested in acquiring LifeBatt 10Ah Lifepo4 Cells.

These are not Old Stock!

The Cells are the Newest “Grey” Cells with LifeBatt Logo and they are still being manufactured till the production run of 100,000 Cells is complete.

What has happened is LifeBatt who build Lifepo4 for Automotive applications was contracted to manufacture 100,000 of the 10Ah Cells for an Electric Car conversion company in the USA. LifeBatt are actively selling HPS Packs using these cells now for the EV automotive market and so either we as e-bikers get them now or they go to the Automotive HPS Packs and we lose out.

A New 14Ah Cell was being developed and the Electric Car company asked to have the new 14Ah Cells.

This created a problem for LifeBatt because once the Production Run begins you cannot just shut it down and start on a new Cell design and so the run goes till the last Cell is done.


LifeBatt Policy is to Not leave finished Cells on the shelf to collect dust.

So 100,000 of the 10Ah Cells need a Home and they need it soon.

This seemed like a real good time to ask LifeBatt to sell this production run to the e-bike community which in case you have not noticed is having a hell of a time locating good quality Lifepo4 at an affordable price.

Affordable Lifepo4 and LifeBatt in the same sentence sounds very weird.

So here is the Plan and I apologize to any Dealers who will go utterly Ape sh*t when they read this.

The LifeBatt 10Ah Lifepo4 Cells will be sold at Cost with Zero Profit involved.

Well apart from the Profit LifeBatt makes since the last time I looked they are not a registered Charity.
A few months ago LifeBatt 10Ah Cells sold at $55.00 USD each.

The Price of this Production Run is $30.00 USD each.

Means a 36V X 10Ah Pack is $360.00 USD
Means a 48V X 10Ah Pack is $480.00 USD

Still Breathing?

What is the Added Cost for the BMS?

Gary Goodrum has to get back to me on this but it should not be expensive in a factory run.

Warranty:

Charger under a Warranty from Soneil International

BMS under a Warranty from Gary Goodrum

The LifeBatt Individual Cells are under a 90 Day Warranty

I have spoken at great length with Soneil and they will supply a Charger modified to work with LifeBatt Lifepo4.

The Chargers are not your usual 1.5A Plastic Chinese Chargers.

The 48V Unit is 6A and the 36V unit is 3.5A

These will be sold AT THE WHOLESALE COST (Again No Profit)

The Cases

Here we have a problem because I have not been as active as I should be to track down a suitable case but am on that now.

The LifeBatt Cells have a Threaded Post at each end of the Cell with a Washer and Nut. These Cells need to be very secure in the case and held by brackets.
Not having a Case at this point is a PITA but not a deal breaker since the Cases will not be needed for a good 3 weeks after the Order is sent to the Factory in Taiwan.
Shipping

LifeBatt-USA is willing to Pay the Sea Freight Shipping, Import Duties, Homeland Security Fee and Taxes and so YOU won’t have to be concerned about that cost.

Once the Battery Packs/Cells are Warehoused in California everyone who has placed an order will be contacted and asked to arrange for USPS—UPS or FedEx Shipping to their Door.

Will look at having Canadian customers served by a shipment to Vancouver B.C.

I want to nail down the Case & BMS cost before I ask anyone to send me their money. I hate Hidden Charges that appear later and I’m sure the rest of you ladies hate it too, so I want to get all this right.

Do I project the sale of 100,000 Cells?

Be Nice but would be happy at 20,000 but LifeBatt would be ecstatic if 50,000 cells went out the door in one shot.

How Much Money do I make from all this?

Absolutely Nuthin

There is a Window here, a Window that closes and stays closed till the Spring of 2009. Anyone who wants in on this Offer has to signup and pay the full amount before June 28th.

I already know that everyone on Endless-Sphere will dissect this offer till the cows come home and decide there is something wrong with it, but then it is their loss when hundreds of e-bikers are riding around on LifeBatt packs that work and they cannot buy one. This really is a One Time deal.

I am going to open this up to a few Dealers also at the same $30.00 per Cell. What I expect will happen is when those who buy in now get and ride with their Packs they will leave a trail of people who want one also and there won’t be any available. Having a limited number of Dealers onboard will allow sales after everyone has theirs, but I can guarantee those Dealers will add their (Healthy for them) Profit Markups.

Will create a Yahoo Group Site for people with questions and keep everyone in the loop as this progresses.

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Group buy of impressive PHET Lifepo cells

Post by dingo » Sun, 13 Jul 2008, 00:32

This sounfs like a great deal . I`ve just electrified my pushbike & am chasing a decent 36 volt 10 to 12 amphour battery & charger . Is this deal still happening ?

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Group buy of impressive PHET Lifepo cells

Post by ShaDoW » Fri, 24 Oct 2008, 04:09

did i turn up to late is this still happening?

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