Charging a 450V battery pack

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EVFAN
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by EVFAN »

Hi EV Fans,

I am getting my EV design together and I have decided to go with a 450V battery pack and a WaveSculptor 200 controller. The only thing is I cannot find a charger for this voltage as it is greater than a single phase AC supply can provide. It has been suggested by Jon from CATAVOLT that I split the battery pack for the purposes of charging. I am thinking of breaking it up into 3 sub packs using a set of contactors and connect them in parallel for charging at 150 V. Has anyone had any experience at charging battery packs of this voltage ? The other questions is can anyone suggest a commercially available radiator for cooling a Wavesculptor 200 ?

Thanks

Garry
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by KDRYAN »

Motor bikes have varying size radiators available in aluminium, very strong construction.
Last edited by KDRYAN on Wed, 08 Jun 2011, 17:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Charging a 450V battery pack

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Hi. Yes it has been suggested I try a motorbike radiator. So do I just go to a wreckers ?
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by coulomb »

There is also the gear recommended by Tritium; page 25 of the user manual:

16.3 COOLING SYSTEM COMPONENTS
Radiator – Aluminium core 3x 120mm size
Koolance HX-1020
Pump – Magnetically coupled 12V
Koolance PMP-400

We ordered the larger model that takes up to 4 120 mm fans.

In fact, here is our order; I assume that this is in US$:

1 x Reservoir Body, 120mm Length, 236ml(TNK-BD120) = $13.99
1 x Reservoir Top with Fill Port(COV-TKTOP) = $9.99
1 x Pump Nozzle & Reservoir Base for PMP-400(COV-RP400) = $39.99
1 x Liquid Coolant Bottle, High-Performance, 700mL (UV Red)(LIQ-702RD-B) = $14.99
4 x Tubing Spring Wrap, Black [For OD: 13mm (1/2")](SPR-10BK) = $2.49
10 x Tubing, Clear UV-Reactive PVC, 1ft/30.5cm [ID: 10mm (3/8"); OD: 13mm (1/2")](HOS-10CL) = $1.29
1 x Pump, PMP-400 [10mm, 3/8" ID](PMP-400) = $75.99
2 x Nozzle Pair, Compression [For ID: 10mm (3/8"), OD: 13mm (1/2")](NZL-V10P) = $8.99
1 x Radiator, 4x120mm, Aluminum [no nozzles](HX-1320) = $73.99
Subtotal: = $269.78
UPS Worldwide Expedited (ETA: May 25, 2010): = $104.06
Total: = $373.84

Wow, that American freight is fierce. You might do better locally with motor cycle parts.

Images here: Cooling gear arrives.
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by coulomb »

EVFAN wrote: I am getting my EV design together and I have decided to go with a 450V battery pack and a WaveSculptor 200 controller.

450 V is right on the limit of the controller. It's like the absolute maximum voltage. In practice, you would want to use a pack voltage more like 400 V nominal, so that surges don't exceed the 450 V limit.

We're hoping to use a 730 V nominal pack (228 x 3.2 V), and will charge it in two 365 V nominal sub-packs. So each sub-pack will be 114 cells. 114 cells x 3.65 V = 416.1 V. The highest voltage charger we could find was the Elcon (now TC) 312 V nominal charger, which has an upper limit of 416 V, so it just squeaks it in. Charger arrives.

We have the CAN version of the charger, which gives us complete control over voltage and current. We don't actually use the CAN dongle that comes with the charger; we bypass it and talk a variant of RS232 to the charger.

You may care to read our considerations for DC-DC converters too; these are not as common at this voltage level either. DC-DC selection. The LED power supplies that we found work up to 417 V DC, so this seems to be the practical upper limit for pack voltage. At least, without getting really expensive.
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by gmacd33 »

For a charger, Brusa is the best IMHO but also very expensive. You can get them from metricmind.com - the NLG513-SX is US$4,396 (price just went up).

Apparently LiFeTech is also bringing out a charger shortly - don't have details myself.

The Manzanita Micro PFC20 charger specs a peak voltage of 450V. They are somewhat less refined than Brusa, and less expensive.

For DC-DC converters, I have a contact that supplies ones with input voltage of 254-780VDC, for around $200. They only supply 10A continuous at 12V, so maybe a couple in parallel. PM me if interested.

I would advise against splitting the pack if you don't have to - just creates extra complexity.
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by gmacd33 »

gmacd33 wrote:

For DC-DC converters, I have a contact that supplies ones with input voltage of 254-780VDC, for around $200. They only supply 10A continuous at 12V, so maybe a couple in parallel.


Some say connecting DC-DC converters in parallel would require Auctioneering diodes?!? Anybody know more about this?
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by EVFAN »

Thanks for that. I will check out some suppliers of MB parts. It would be good to get one locally if I could.
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Charging a 450V battery pack

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gmacd33 wrote: Some say connecting DC-DC converters in parallel would require Auctioneering diodes?!? Anybody know more about this?

Auctioneering? That's a new term on me.

But some sort of current sharing is likely needed, or one converter will likely hog all the load. That's fine if it won't overheat, and you are using it across the whole pack. We'll eventually be using one DC-DC across each half of the pack (when in the 730 V configuration), so we'll want each converter to draw close to equal current. Otherwise, we'll end up with an unbalance that will at least cause the balance resistors to waste more power than needed, and charging will take longer than necessary. It is even possible that the balancing resistors won't be able to keep the pack in balance, and that would cost range.

So we need some sort of current balancing between the two converters. I don't know what the attraction of diodes is for current sharing; as far as I can tell anything that drops a little voltage will do. We're hoping that we can just run separate long lengths of wire from the converters to the auxiliary battery; the tenths of a volt that the cables will drop should make it possible to balance the converters. Our converters have adjustable outputs. Time will tell whether the resistance of the cables is enough to allow us to balance the converters sufficiently.
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by coulomb »

gmacd33 wrote: For DC-DC converters, I have a contact that supplies ones with input voltage of 254-780VDC, for around $200. They only supply 10A continuous at 12V, so maybe a couple in parallel.

As a point of interest, Gmac, what brand are the DC-DC converters?

Is the output voltage adjustable?

Do they current limit on overload or just shut down?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by lithbattboss »

gmacd33 wrote: For a charger, Brusa is the best IMHO but also very expensive. You can get them from metricmind.com - the NLG513-SX is US$4,396 (price just went up).

Apparently LiFeTech is also bringing out a charger shortly - don't have details myself.
Yes correct, the Brusa charger is acknowledged as being the world's best quality EV charger by the professional EV industry.

We have recently released a replacement for the Brusa charger of equal quality and performance but at a slightly cheaper cost than Brusa. We actually have two new charger models which we call the "Ugly charger" and the top of the range Brusa replacement is known as the "25 Years charger". We will be offering these new charger models to EV manufacturer's.
This charger has the same high quality connectors fitted as the Brusa unit. It is a fully MHz CAN controlled charger which comes in power ratings of 3.3kW - 19,800kW. The charger does not have any cooling fans (which would wear out) so it is totally quiet in operation. The charger was engineered to last a lifetime. My understanding from the factory is that the name of the charger comes from the warranty on the charger which is 25 years. The 25 Years charger has reliability designed in mind and does not have any electrolytic capacitors in its construction which would eventually dry out after a few years and result in charger failure. The charger utilizes advanced phase locked loop (PLL) technology for its operation.
The "25 Years" charger is shown in the photo. I am looking forward to getting one shortly to play with.

Image
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by gmacd33 »

coulomb wrote:
As a point of interest, Gmac, what brand are the DC-DC converters?

Is the output voltage adjustable?

Do they current limit on overload or just shut down?


Those DC-DC converters are MeanWell brand. Current limiting on overload. I believe output voltage is adjustable.

There is another one that was custom-built for the EV industry by Amtex, which is in Sydney:
460VDC max (customisable I believe)
13.8V, 35A output
current limiting at 38A
around $1000 if my memory is correct
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by PlanB »

I can't get Coulombs 'charger arrives link to work. Is it just my browser?
EVFAN
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by EVFAN »

Hi. The reason you need the diodes is to prevent any current feeding back into another DC-DC converter. You must not use a resistor as the voltage drop will be far too great, remember V=IR? so if you have only a few ohms you will drop several volts for every amp you draw. The diodes on the other hand will give a voltage drop that is basically constant with current. Power diodes will have a drop of a volt or so maximum. The other issue I see is that the 12 V supply has to have the negative connected to the vehicle chassis in order for the normal electrical system to work. On the other hand, I believe the high voltage DC bus for the motor controller must not be earthed for safety reasons. The DC-DC converter runs off the DC battery pack and as such will connect the negative of the battery pack to the chassis since most DC-DC converters use a common negative. Does anyone have any experience in this area with their EV ?

Cheers
Garry
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Charging a 450V battery pack

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PlanB wrote: I can't get Coulombs 'charger arrives' link to work. Is it just my browser?

I use Firefox, and it works for me and also for Weber. I asked him to check since I am the author of that post, so it might treat me specially somehow.

With Internet Explorer version 8, it opens the page, but doesn't scroll to the right place. It's a pretty basic URL, just a straight web page with an anchor, so that seems pretty broken of IE. But you can just scroll down a page or so to get to the second post (the one with the charger images).
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Charging a 450V battery pack

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gmacd33 wrote:Those DC-DC converters are MeanWell brand. Current limiting on overload. I believe output voltage is adjustable.

Ah, these must be the WDR-120-12. We considered these; these might even be usable on our 228-cell pack without splitting it. Though we'd have to disconnect the dc-dc when charging, and for a settling time afterwards; this would have been a nuisance. However, the only supplier we could find was Mouser, and they were non-stocked with a minimum order quantity of 20.

It's good to know that you can source these.
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Charging a 450V battery pack

Post by antiscab »

EVFAN wrote:believe the high voltage DC bus for the motor controller must not be earthed for safety reasons. The DC-DC converter runs off the DC battery pack and as such will connect the negative of the battery pack to the chassis since most DC-DC converters use a common negative. Does anyone have any experience in this area with their EV ?


Hi Garry,

very few dc-dc aren't isolated input to output, particularly the larger ones, or any originally intended to be mains powered (Iota, meanwell, etc).

for leakage to chasis reasons, pack break up and leakage detection is better than a floating pack.

this is particularly true for dc motors, where dust build up usually forms a path to chasis.

most controllers connect the motor negative directly to battery negative, so it is also good practice to at least put a contactor on battery negative to break this fault path when the car is "off".

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