A123(alike) 20ah pouches

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woody
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Post by woody »

24S5P of headway 38120P would be 72V / 40ah and 36kg, and capable of ~ 50kW
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack
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Post by EV2Go »

SplinterOz wrote: I just got a quote from DowKokam the US distributor of the Kokam pouch batteries.

So I was looking at the Large Capacity High Power cells at 70Ah. Hold onto your hats!... they were over 320AUD a cell unless you buy over 250 when they drop to just bellow 300AUD.

So my 24S pack for 70Ah would be over 7,680AUD if I didn't buy spares.

Hmmmm... might be a bit rich for my taste. I think I might have to drop back to the 40Ah or pick another option.

Any other recommendations for getting over 40Ah and over 72 volts in a fairly constrained space.


Batteries are without a doubt the biggest compromise of the lot. We now have motors and controllers capable of delivering the goods for very reasonable prices, unfortunately the same can't be said about batteries.

I find myself constantly having to lower my expectations, range, performance and weight because there simply are no cheap, good, light batteries. There are a few decent ones, but they are generally not within the reach of most people.
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Post by SplinterOz »

woody wrote: 24S5P of headway 38120P would be 72V / 40ah and 36kg, and capable of ~ 50kW


5P? wouldn't 4P be enough for 40Ah? Based on one place that would be 2,400 (4P) or 3,000AUD (for 5p).

To be honest these were my first choice (only the screw terminals) and I may have to do this still.

If I have to go for 40Ah the Kokam pouches come out at under 27Kg (batteries alone). So if I can get the cells for say 4,000AUD then they might still be in the running.
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Post by EV2Go »

I've just read the first 8 pages of that thread and so far I am feeling slightly optimistic that I may have a potential battery pack option.

80S2P looks like it might do the job 40Ah @ 20C is sufficient to deliver the amp spike I want. The weight very looks promising compared to SE or TS, the pack size is very workable (going off the photos) now the big question how much for 160 cells?
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Post by SplinterOz »

EV2Go, are you talking about the A123 Pouch Cells? They are brilliant cells and cheaper than the Kokams. However since GM and a Chinese manufacture I can't remember you just can't buy them.

I have a friend here with a 24S1P pack and it is astounding. If you can dig any up, and I really hope you can, get 50 for me as well (48 plus some spares)

Thanks
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Post by EV2Go »

Yes I was... I have been trying to juggle the numbers for ages but everytime something would come up short. i.e if the pack had enough grunt the price would be too dear, if the price was ok the pack would be too big, not enough power.

I have limited space and limited weight to play with, it would seem that these pouches eliminate both these problems by removing the weight and size of the casing. Sure I need to put a bit back in connections and seperators but if the price is doable they look great for my application.

I have emailed Paul (cell_man), need to sit back and wait now. One thing I do need to find out is how many times they can be cycled.
Last edited by EV2Go on Sun, 26 Sep 2010, 07:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by LightningEV »

I have a 30S64P 99v, 147ah pack capabale of around 300kw, It is made from 1,920 "26650" size cells I am still working on the BMS but so far has only cost me $15,000.AUD.

There are always alternatives for your applications, sometimes the cheapies can do the job if your willing to sacrifice longevity.

And sometimes it worth paying 3x the price for a product that lasts 4x as long.
Progress was never made by thinking Inside the box.
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Post by SplinterOz »

I am converting a small bike for daily use and the Sky Energy etc just don't cut it for size/capacity.

I know the headway cells can build a pack I want but the construction effort and BMS may be beyond my skills.

I love the idea of the pouch batteries because you just have to make a firm box and string them together. With the larger Ah rating I don't have to worry about parallel. That said either I can't get them or the cost a small fortune.

Now I have found another supplier of 20Ah LiFePO4 pouch batteries. They are not as good as the A123 as they seem to be 3C continuous (maybe 5C looking at charts.)

This is their table of 40Ah Cells
Battery model Capacity Volt   Thickness Width Height Impedance Weight
G-P70173248     20     3.2     7.0       173     248     5      580
G-P11198135     20     3.2     11.0      198     135     5      560
   
On the site http://ebikebattery.en.alibaba.com/ they have the prices for the smaller 10Ah at 5 - 30 USD depending on quantity. If the 20Ah are 3 times that then we are looking at a max of 90USD per cell. I presume we would have to buy a minimum number.

Look here for discharge curves etc http://ebikebattery.en.alibaba.com/prod ... _11AH.html

Opinions? Remembering I want range first, power second (200Ah burst) but small enough for my little RG250 motorbike. These look like I could get a 40Ah pack for under 27KG and a 60Ah for 42KG odd. The first should to my 200Ah peak and the second would almost do it continuous (if you believe the supplier)

Last edited by SplinterOz on Mon, 27 Sep 2010, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EV2Go »

If 20Ah are US$90 a cell that would make 60Ah US$270 is that much cheaper than the other options? More cells equals more BMS dollars.
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Post by SplinterOz »

Ev2Go... according to the email I have the largest pouch from them is 20Ah so if we want 60Ah we have to parallel the cells. Not ideal but better than using 6P on the Headways.
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Post by EV2Go »

I think for you and I who both have space limits the pouches make the most sense, unforunately I need more C for those to work for me, but if performance is secondary they might be worth checking out.

Edit: hmmm They seem to struggle to deliver 5C not so sure about these.
Last edited by EV2Go on Mon, 27 Sep 2010, 10:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by LightningEV »

I am always very cautious of chinese companies that advertise incorrect data about their product, the cell pictured is a Lithium manganese pouch cell, not a Phasphate cell, also who is this company and who do they currently supply, more than likely they do not manufactur the cell.

Personally I find pouch cells much harder to work with tham cylindrical cells, which are much more durable than the pouch cells. I have had pouch cells arrive damaged and some of those were from reputable brands like A123. Also they have poorer thermodynamics than their cylindrical counterparts, are irregular in capacity making balancing the cells much more intensive require very specialised housing and are more difficult to connect in series. If you draw too much from them you will initiate venting, which pouch cells do not have any valves to releive the pressure and the cell gets destroyed.

In general pouch cells and high C rate do not go well together, don't take my word for it, ask reputable companies like A123 why their RC packs use their cylindrical technology and not their pouch technology.

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Post by EV2Go »

Yes but they have one thing that a cylinder can never match... effective use of space. Doesn't really matter anyway I just read the remaining 8 pages, they might just as well be made of gas, as they now appear to be vapourware. Figures the moment you finally feel like you have an answer the supply dries up.
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Post by SplinterOz »

Ev2Go... I did try and tell you they weren't available any more. Hence why I am looking at Kokam's or these others.
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Post by EV2Go »

You did but you have factor in the fact that I am slow Image

Just on the Headway website seeing if they have anything workable. At US$320 a cell for Kokam's and I need 80, I cant see that happening.

Headway appear to have 50Ah cells but cant seem to find specs for them. Got it wrong again there 5P.
Last edited by EV2Go on Mon, 27 Sep 2010, 13:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Speedily »

LightningEV wrote: I have a 30S64P 99v, 147ah pack capabale of around 300kw, It is made from 1,920 "26650" size cells I am still working on the BMS but so far has only cost me $15,000.AUD.

There are always alternatives for your applications, sometimes the cheapies can do the job if your willing to sacrifice longevity.

And sometimes it worth paying 3x the price for a product that lasts 4x as long.


Hi can we see some photos of your Pack :)
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Post by lithbattboss »

SplinterOz wrote: Ev2Go... I did try and tell you they weren't available any more. Hence why I am looking at Kokam's or these others.

SplinterOz, it looks like you have a nice e-motorcycle project in the making.

I am supplying LiFeTech X2E high energy cells for a new manufacturer of sports electric motorcycles in New Zealand.
The link to the manufacturer (Astara) is here-
http://www.astara.co.nz/Astara/Electric ... oject.html

I may even consider making available a few of our soon to be released HEHC
3.3V 20Ah 300amp discharge professional cells. The HEHC cells will leave A123 cells far behind in the dust!Image
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Post by EV2Go »

Congrats lithbattboss... wouldn't a 15C battery be less powerful than the XPS?
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Post by Speedily »

Hey lithbattboss can you let on more info on your new cells
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Post by lithbattboss »

Speedily wrote: Hey lithbattboss can you let on more info on your new cells

We have been trying to keep info on our new 20Ah HEHC cells secret for some time now since we want to avoid the other cell manufacturers learning about our new cell and its design for as long as possible.
We have registered a worldwide patent on the new cell design so I guess now is as good a time as any to "let the cat out of the bag" and explain more about the new cell in detail.

I will start a new thread with cell description and will post the first photos of the cell (now that I am allowed to post the information on a public forum).
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Post by Speedily »

lithbattboss wrote:
Speedily wrote: Hey lithbattboss can you let on more info on your new cells

We have been trying to keep info on our new 20Ah HEHC cells secret for some time now since we want to avoid the other cell manufacturers learning about our new cell and its design for as long as possible.
We have registered a worldwide patent on the new cell design so I guess now is as good a time as any to "let the cat out of the bag" and explain more about the new cell in detail.

I will start a new thread with cell description and will post the first photos of the cell (now that I am allowed to post the information on a public forum).


kool show me your spec :)
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Post by LightningEV »

LifeTech, sounds Interesting, but ofcourse at 15C they hardly leave A123 in the dust, ofcourse if you actually make them available to the public then that is another matter entirely.

I'll take a photo and put it up on my website. The cells are still naked and not boxed because I am still working on the BMS, many companies have failed to produce a BMS capable of working with the A123's high discharge capabilities, So I have to build it from scratch.
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Post by EV2Go »

LightningEV: lithbattboss already sells a fully funtioning BMS for his cells. Not only is it capable, but it is pobably over the top for many...

lithbattboss: com'on don't keep us hanging lets see some specs / prices.

Are these targeted between the "power cell" and the "energy cell"?
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Post by Gow864 »

yeah.... he's gonna put prices up on this forum.... hahahahaha
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Post by EV2Go »

You can always ask... but yes I am afraid it will be more of the same as far as pricing goes. Pity they are nice looking cells with performance to match Image

I'm currently investigating a pack of A123 26650 cells but we'll see what comes of it.
Last edited by EV2Go on Wed, 29 Sep 2010, 07:59, edited 1 time in total.
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