A123(alike) 20ah pouches

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Post by Gow864 » Sat, 30 Jan 2010, 18:53

I've been following this thread over on the endless-shpere forums. I thought some here may be interested in these cells.

Maybe, someone with the know-how could check out the testing that's been done on these cells and tell us if they're for real.

Thanks,
Gow.

PS: I've linked to page 8 in this thread because of the pretty pictures Image
Last edited by Gow864 on Mon, 01 Feb 2010, 03:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by woody » Sun, 31 Jan 2010, 00:10

thanks GoW,
I've read that thread now and most of the 2 it references.
Rough figure from one point in a discharge test is:
150 Amps (7.5C for 20 Ah Cell)
3.07 V (round it down to 3.05 for easy maths)
So 0.15 V drop at 7.5C
0.02 V/C drop

30C would be 2.6 V

they look very capable

they also tested at 30C (600A)

US$2.50 / Ah

more power / more money than headways.

Great for drag racing.
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Post by lithbattboss » Sun, 31 Jan 2010, 01:30

What has happened with these cells? Ligthning EV in Tamworth was selling these locally and now they have just disappeared. I also know a guy from Sydney who ordered 50 of the 26650 A123 cells from the same supplier and they have not been delivered.
Are these cells real or fakes since I understand they are made in Korea and not in the USA (as are genuine A123 cells).
Can anyone shed some light on this?
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Post by mjcrow » Mon, 01 Feb 2010, 03:11

The cells from Paul (cell_man) seem to be legit, he has 15Ah and 20Ah cells, he has sent samples to quite a few people and everyone who has independently tested them seems pretty satisfied that they are the real deal. He has sent cells to CroDriver who also posts on this forum, so I'm fairly sure he will give some feedback when he has tested the cells himself, his pics of the cells he received are lower down this page Link

Lithbattboss, I don't think anyone has had problems dealing with Paul, you may be getting confused with someone else. And yes the cells are made in Korea, but are sent from China. To my knowledge the only EV in production currently using these cells is a Chinese car, so my bet is they are coming from an insider there.

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Post by lithbattboss » Mon, 01 Feb 2010, 04:14

mjcrow wrote: The cells from Paul (cell_man) seem to be legit, he has 15Ah and 20Ah cells, he has sent samples to quite a few people and everyone who has independently tested them seems pretty satisfied that they are the real deal. He has sent cells to CroDriver who also posts on this forum, so I'm fairly sure he will give some feedback when he has tested the cells himself, his pics of the cells he received are lower down this page Link

Lithbattboss, I don't think anyone has had problems dealing with Paul, you may be getting confused with someone else. And yes the cells are made in Korea, but are sent from China. To my knowledge the only EV in production currently using these cells is a Chinese car, so my bet is they are coming from an insider there.


Robert from Lighting EV (here in Australia) is the guy I was talking about since he is the local guy supposedly selling the cells (who has now disappeared it seems).
Paul (cell_man) is a guy in the USA isn't he? This means shipping costs have to be added.

It would of been nice to get a few cells for some thorough testing.
Is a detailed specification sheet available for these cells?
Last edited by lithbattboss on Sun, 31 Jan 2010, 17:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lithbattboss » Mon, 01 Feb 2010, 04:33

Ok, I knew Paul (cell_man) was not local but I see he is in China and not in the USA. He must be getting some cells from a source in China which were supposed to be used by a Chinese EV manufacturer (or some similar source)?
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Post by cell_man » Mon, 01 Feb 2010, 04:40

Hi,

I heard my name so thought I'd pop over :)

I'm actually based in China but I'm British or what you'd probably call a whinging pom...

Sorry there's no spec sheet as such for these cells but independent tests seem to indicate C ratings similar to A123 26650s. I'm not really claiming 30C constant (and independent tests on A123 26650s seem to suggest they will not actually do a 30C constant) but they will deliver somewhere in the region of 20C for pretty much the capacity of the cell but you do risk damaging them with that kind of use. With a more sensible approach they will happily sustain circa 10-15C with much higher peaks. Liveforphysics or Luke on Endless Shere has tested some cells with a pulsed load and got some very impressive figures. I've personally only tested them with resistive loads at roughly 20C constant and over 25C for several second bursts. Both tests result in considerable voltage sag in the order of about 2.3V give or take. That's 400A constant out of a single 20Ah cell which weighs 467g with peaks of over 500A.

I did see a guy claiming to have 20Ah cells on Australian ebay but the pic was actually of a 15Ah cell. I've sent 2 small samples to Australia so far and have 1 Australian customer who has ordered a big 32S 60Ah pack for what will be a very fast e motorbike with double Agni motors and a 1200A controller.

Cheers
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Last edited by cell_man on Sun, 31 Jan 2010, 17:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by lithbattboss » Mon, 01 Feb 2010, 05:03

A few questions cell_man

1) Are you an authorised A123 supplier or do the cells you offer come through a "backdoor channel"?

2) As well as the 20Ah pouch cells do you also have available the 15Ah cylindrical cells?

3) Do you know why there is no specification sheet available for the cells? A123 has them listed on their website but no data sheet is listed.

Thanks
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Post by cell_man » Mon, 01 Feb 2010, 09:43

Hi Lithbatboss,

I'm not going to go into too much detail about the cells I have sourced, including the manufacturer and how I sourced them. I would prefer to let people do there own tests to satisfy themselves that they meet their requirements and leave it at that. I am not charging a premium for a sample either and am happy to ship 1 cell or 100 cells, well obviously I'm happier to sell 100, but you know what I mean :)

The cells are shipped with all identifying marks removed as best I can. I've now supplied to quite a few on ES and nobody has had cause to complain yet. I'm presently working on a termination method so should have assembled pack ready soon.

I have 15Ah and 20Ah pouch cells only. They both have similar performance with regards to C rating. From independent tests I've seen on A123 26650 cells and the cells I am supplying, they display very similar discharge curve at similar C ratings. The difference is in the energy density with typical weights of 400g and 467g for 15 and 20Ah respectively. The 15Ah cells are actually more like 16Ah so they are pretty close WRT energy density, but the 20Ah is a little better in this respect.

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Post by roddilkes » Fri, 05 Feb 2010, 23:49

I have done an independent test on these cells comparing them to Thundersky and Sky Energy cells.
All the cells were fully charged before testing.

For the purpose of comparison I put two of the 20Ah nanophosphate cells in parallel to make 40Ah and compared to SE40AHA and LFP40AHA cells at 3C or 120A.
The results are shown.

Regards, Rod Dilkes

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Post by roddilkes » Sat, 06 Feb 2010, 00:09

Just for good measure here is a graph of nanophos at 1C and 7C (not 8C as on the graph). FYI 7C = dead flat in 8.5mins. Not many applications require this.
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 06 Feb 2010, 00:20

Wow, thanks, Rod!

It shows that Thunder Sky cells really don't like 3C discharge much; that cell only gave about 30 Ah.

The Sky Energy cell by comparison has much less voltage drop, a flatter discharge, and gives a little over 40 Ah, though clearly 3C is getting close to as much as it wants to give.

By contrast, the A123-like cells (can we find a name for them? Perhaps B123? Image ), is ruler flat until about 80% discharge. It's clearly not breaking a sweat at all. Most impressive!

I'd bet that the higher temperature rise of the B123 is because the core is more accessible to be measured; I'd say the Sky Energy would have more "bottled" heat that will come out over time. It would have been nice to see the temperature over a longer time.
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 06 Feb 2010, 00:35

roddilkes wrote: Methinks I'm doing you a big favor Cell Man!

So Cell_man didn't ask or commission you to do these tests, you just did them for your own information?

And immediately published the information, too... thanks!
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Post by woody » Sat, 06 Feb 2010, 04:06

roddilkes wrote: Just for good measure here is a graph of nanophos at 1C and 7C (not 8C as on the graph). FYI 7C = dead flat in 8.5mins. Not many applications require this.
Methinks I'm doing you a big favor Cell Man!

Image
Thanks Rod!

Conservatively looks like about 2.85 V @ 7C - so a drop of 0.35V or 0.05/C - between the headway "power" and "normal" cells.

If you could give the voltage at 7C we could do a more accurate number...
2.92V = 0.04C - same as headway 38120P claim
2.99V = 0.03C - better
3.06V = 0.02C - what the other discharge test looked like

Either way - the cells look good.
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Post by PlanB » Tue, 09 Feb 2010, 17:24

Is there a BMS for these? I need a 100Ahr @ 350v pack with BMS.

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Post by cell_man » Tue, 09 Feb 2010, 23:05

Hi Guys sorry I didn't check in lately I've been very busy.

Thanks for the data Rod, much appreciated Image Hope you don't mind but I have also given it out to a few people. Rod just bought some cells from me at the full price and we have no affiliation. That was just some of the cells that were sent and are just like the others I have here.

Bear in mind those are real figures taken by an independent tester, not something put in a brochure to make them look good.

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Post by shlodo » Mon, 26 Apr 2010, 08:57

Thanks for the discharge curves Rod. Are you form EV works by any chance? I saw a similar looking graph on their website comparing TS and SE.

Anyone know how to get their hands on these prismatic A123 cells? Price? Weight etc..

We are looking at purchasing 160V worth of 70Ah cells for high performance SAE racer and they have to be light and at least cope with 5C.

Kokam's are looking good because they are so light and appear to be able to do 10C quite easily (but I hear they might be dangerous).

We currently have TS40AH but they can barely handle 3C and capacity is greatly reduced (Peukert's Law). I have been looking at the 60Ah Sky Energy's but they are still too heavy.

The only other option is A123 and I dont know much about them or how on Earth to purchase them. Where can I get Kokam or A123 like cells from? Anyone know?

-Ben

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 26 Apr 2010, 17:02

shlodo wrote: Are you form EV works by any chance?
Yes, Rod was head of one of the three businesses that merged to form EV Works.
Anyone know how to get their hands on these prismatic A123 cells? Price? Weight etc..
If you mean the A123-like pouch cells, they don't officially exist; the only way to get them is through cell_man. Contact him directly.
We currently have TS40AH but they can barely handle 3C and capacity is greatly reduced (Peukert's Law). I have been looking at the 60Ah Sky Energy's but they are still too heavy.

As noted above, CALB/Sky Energy 40 Ah are slightly better than Thunder Sky 40 Ah, at around the 3C rate, and are about the same size and weight. But it sounds like they're not enough of an improvement for your application.
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Post by shlodo » Wed, 28 Apr 2010, 07:51

Thanks Coloumb. Yeh the Sky Energy's seem to be a much better option. But for my racing application I need at least 60Ah, but TS and SE are just too heavy. That is why I'm very interested in Kokam 70Ah and A123 batteries.

I have received a quote from Dow Kokam but I can't seem to find a supplier of A123's. Does anyone have any leads?

Cheers,

Ben

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Post by lithbattboss » Thu, 29 Apr 2010, 03:35

shlodo wrote:
The only other option is A123 and I dont know much about them or how on Earth to purchase them. Where can I get Kokam or A123 like cells from? Anyone know?
-Ben
That is not your only option for high power cells. I can supply you with LiFeTech 8Ah X1P Power cells rated at 25C continuous and 35C peak discharge.

I have 320 of these cells on their way to Australia which will be arriving next week for a guy building a high performance electric motorcycle. We supplied the same cells for another e-motorcycle as pictured below.

You will find the A123 cells harder and harder to obtain. This is because A123 Systems are "cleaning up" the "leakage" channels which is how some of the unauthorised (by A123 Systems) cells are finding their way into the DIY EV market recently. A123 is now tightening controls on this.
As far as the two other manufacturers of very high power cells (Kokam and SAFT) these companies mainly service the military markets and are not interested in selling their products to private end users (with the rare exception).

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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 29 Apr 2010, 04:57

shlodo wrote: Thanks Coloumb. Yeh the Sky Energy's seem to be a much better option. But for my racing application I need at least 60Ah, but TS and SE are just too heavy. That is why I'm very interested in Kokam 70Ah and A123 batteries.

I have received a quote from Dow Kokam but I can't seem to find a supplier of A123's. Does anyone have any leads?

Cheers,

Ben


If the price of A123's doesn't scare you then you might want to consider the LifeTechs as an alternative.

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Post by shlodo » Thu, 29 Apr 2010, 07:13

@ LiFeTech

Really 25C?? from those little cells? I am quite interested. They are LiFePo right? Why is it the cylindrical LiFePo's have better C-rates than the prismatic (like SE and TS)?

Can you send me some more specs on these cells?(blandolina@gmail.com) or should I contact you through your website? I'd like to test a few of these...

Can you give me an idea of price? Do you guys have BMS systems for those cells?

I'm a bit worried about the amount of cells. I'd like as few cells as possible. I'd need to parallel like 8 or 9 just to get 70Ah and I need about 150-160 volts. Would you use 1 BMS per paralleled string?


Regarding Kokam. I have actually gotten in contact with them and they have responded to me. They gave me a quote on their 70Ah high powered pouch batteries at a reduced price for Uni projects.
Last edited by shlodo on Wed, 28 Apr 2010, 21:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 29 Apr 2010, 20:00

lithbattboss distributes them but be warned they are not going to be cheap... Paying royalties to patent holder, law suits, blah blah blah = much higher price than the Chinese equivilant, but so often in life you get what you pay for... is the asking price equivilant to what is being delivered... I'll leave that up to you.

If the price was a little more "acceptable" (i.e competative) I would probably give them a go myself, but like most people you need a sealing on your build price mine is ~$30k and I don't think I can afford them.

Edit:
Please don't think my matter of fact response is bagging them in any way, that's just me a very matter of fact person who calls it as they see it with little to no tact. I would give them a go but I consider them too dear, doesn't mean they are, just in my world that is the reality.
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Post by LightningEV » Thu, 24 Jun 2010, 17:13

Hi, It seems there are some discrepancies about me, let me clarify.

OSN Power, china Authorised me to resell the A123 batteries in 2009. OSN being an Authorised OEM Distributer, However in 2010 A123 Informed OSN that resale to the public was not allowed and thus I am no longer permitted to sell bare cells to the public.

I do not have any outstanding orders, and I have not disapeared, I am working on EV packs to sell to the end user, as I can no longer sell bare cells.

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Post by SplinterOz » Sat, 25 Sep 2010, 15:14

I just got a quote from DowKokam the US distributor of the Kokam pouch batteries.

So I was looking at the Large Capacity High Power cells at 70Ah. Hold onto your hats!... they were over 320AUD a cell unless you buy over 250 when they drop to just bellow 300AUD.

So my 24S pack for 70Ah would be over 7,680AUD if I didn't buy spares.

Hmmmm... might be a bit rich for my taste. I think I might have to drop back to the 40Ah or pick another option.

Any other recommendations for getting over 40Ah and over 72 volts in a fairly constrained space.
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