Green Car Innovation Fund

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
moemoke
Groupie
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue, 20 May 2008, 04:47
Real Name: Andrew Pugsley
Location: Moe, Victoria,

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by moemoke » Fri, 16 Jan 2009, 19:51

I found an advert for the Governments GCIF in the Financial Review.

The Aust Govt has a 'Framework Paper' (Link)

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/Manufactu ... 202008.pdf

in Dec 08 for their 1.3 billion dollar Green Car Innovation Fund and are holding Consultation Sessions
in Brisbane, Sydney, Melb & Adelaide (sorry not in Perth)

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/Manufactu ... GCIF).aspx

It would be great if they could see past Hybrids and diesels and put some of the money into renewable fueled Elec Cars.

Wonder if the AEVA could make a submission.

Just having a quick read of the Framework there are Grants available for Vehicle producers and individuals who warrent to form a company.

We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors,
we borrow it from our Children.

User avatar
Taffy
Groupie
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 15:12
Real Name: Taffy Flynn
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by Taffy » Sat, 17 Jan 2009, 16:27

I looked into some "green" funding when i was in uni doing a project. They are set up for big business not little guys, i didnt read all of them so if anyone finds a hole that AEVA, Blade, or anyone can apply threw let us know.

gpsnettrack
Groupie
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue, 13 Jan 2009, 07:28
Real Name: Alan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by gpsnettrack » Sun, 18 Jan 2009, 05:23


Just by attending, you never know who you will end up networking with. I would suggest all members trty to put aside 2.5 hours if possible and attend one of the sessions.

I am

Alan ... In Brisbane



This is a summary email confirming your RSVP to the following sessions:

All of your nominated sessions have been confirmed!

- Your booking for session "Green Car Innovation Fund consultation session"
has been confirmed!

-- Booked Session Details --
Green Car Innovation Fund consultation session
Locality : Brisbane
Date : 02/02/2009
Time : 9.30am
Venue Name : The Sebel & Citigate
Venue Address :
King George Square
Corner Ann & Roma Streets


Thank you for your RSVP.

moemoke
Groupie
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue, 20 May 2008, 04:47
Real Name: Andrew Pugsley
Location: Moe, Victoria,

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by moemoke » Sun, 18 Jan 2009, 18:48

Taffy, There are 2 funding Streams,
Stream A for registered Motor Vehicle Producers.
Stream B for quote "all Australian companies or Individuals (who warrant to form a company if offered assistance and prior to signing a funding agreement) other than the Motor Vehicle Producers eligible under stream A. Nonetheless, Motor Vehicle Produceres may participate as a member of consortia or group under Stream B provided that the MVP is not the applicant."
There are some other requirements to be eligible for the funding.

Maybe gpsnetrack can fill us in on the details
We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors,
we borrow it from our Children.

Mark T
Groupie
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri, 04 Jan 2008, 03:56
Real Name: Mark Taylor
Location: Sydney

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by Mark T » Sun, 18 Jan 2009, 20:55

I've just booked in for the Sydney session.

- Your booking for session "Green Car Innovation Fund consultation session"
has been confirmed!

-- Booked Session Details --
Green Car Innovation Fund consultation session
Locality : Sydney
Date : 03/02/2009
Time : 9.30am
Venue Name : Wesley Conference Centre
Venue Address :
220 Pitt Street
Sydney

Thank you for your RSVP.

gpsnettrack
Groupie
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue, 13 Jan 2009, 07:28
Real Name: Alan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by gpsnettrack » Mon, 19 Jan 2009, 06:34

" Maybe gpsnetrack can fill us in on the details "

At this stage I know as much as you all do. I saw it in the paper.


Alan


a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by a4x4kiwi » Mon, 19 Jan 2009, 14:36

I have registered for teh Sydney session.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

gpsnettrack
Groupie
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue, 13 Jan 2009, 07:28
Real Name: Alan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by gpsnettrack » Tue, 20 Jan 2009, 07:54



I will be taking my own business cards, but if there are AEVA business cards feel free to send them to me and I will hand them out.


Alan

User avatar
Taffy
Groupie
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 15:12
Real Name: Taffy Flynn
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by Taffy » Tue, 20 Jan 2009, 14:00

moemoke wrote: Taffy, There are 2 funding Streams,
Stream A for registered Motor Vehicle Producers.
Stream B for quote "all Australian companies or Individuals


I guess i only found stream A when i was looking early last year! Good to see there is something out there for others!
Image

User avatar
Thalass
Senior Member
Posts: 741
Joined: Sun, 12 Aug 2007, 07:29
Real Name: Ben Rypstra
Location: Perth, WA, AU

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by Thalass » Thu, 29 Jan 2009, 07:54

Sounds like this would not include an LPG-conversion style subsidy for EV conversions. Which is a pity, but this is nonetheless a great start! I suppose the point is to stimulate a new industry (or push a stubborn old one in a new direction). Helping backyard converters would probably be counter-productive if anything. Taking sales of new cars away from the manufacturers if anything.

Still, it'd be nice.
I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3720
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by coulomb » Tue, 03 Feb 2009, 18:39

Ok, I've been yesterday to the Brisbane session.

Here are my thoughts:

1) This is not for the very small company or individual that has little money behind him/her. The usual ratio is 1:3 (1 government grant dollar to 3 grantee dollars, and you have to prove that you have your $3). The minimum grant is $100K, so you need to have $300K of your own money (or your consortium does).

2) This is not for production; this is for preproduction, R&D, and proof of concept. It needs to feed into some production process that is not funded, and which benefits the environment and Australian industry.

3) It seems that at least half of the attendees were interested in electric vehicles.

4) EVs might have a hard case to sell; one attendee noted in question time that Garnaut stated that EVs using coal based electricity are 30% worse for GHG than comparable petrol vehicles. Regardless of whether you believe that, you might have trouble justifying your GHG benefits.

5) I found it very worthwhile just to meet the other attendees.

6) It seems that trucks and buses contribute way more to GHG than passenger cars, but these are not covered by the green car initiative.

Some interesting characters: a guy with a process patent for LiFePO4 cathode nanomaterial; a guy making light planes that wants to make light EVs; an importer of Porsche 911 and 914s.

Mark T
Groupie
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri, 04 Jan 2008, 03:56
Real Name: Mark Taylor
Location: Sydney

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by Mark T » Tue, 03 Feb 2009, 21:23

After attending the conference in Sydney I am of the same view. The investment needed was to high, better off getting a grant through the Climate Ready Program. We had 8 AEVA members there but it was a great way to get in contact with other like minded people. That's what we need more of, EV Networking EVents.
Was the light plane guy Howie Hughes with his Roadie EV ?

I, Claudius
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed, 21 May 2008, 18:03
Location: Sydney

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by I, Claudius » Tue, 03 Feb 2009, 22:14

coulomb wrote: Ok, I've been yesterday to the Brisbane session.

Here are my thoughts:


Sounds like a replay of the Sydney session. Image
coulomb wrote: 1) This is not for the very small company or individual that has little money behind him/her. The usual ratio is 1:3 (1 government grant dollar to 3 grantee dollars, and you have to prove that you have your $3). The minimum grant is $100K, so you need to have $300K of your own money (or your consortium does).


Note that the grants are paid in arrears; so in this example, you'd need the full $400K, with $100K returned.
coulomb wrote: 4) EVs might have a hard case to sell; one attendee noted in question time that Garnaut stated that EVs using coal based electricity are 30% worse for GHG than comparable petrol vehicles. Regardless of whether you believe that, you might have trouble justifying your GHG benefits.


I believe it. Easy enough to work to out a figure in that ballpack with a BOTE (back of the envelope) calculation.

This is one point in which the panel was very hazy on details. It doesn't sound like they plan to prescribe an approved standard or methodology for computing GHG benefits, and so the onus falls on to the applicant to demonstrate that benefit themselves.

This opens the possibility that applicants will not necessarily be calculating their expected benefits on an even scale (given the sensitivity of GHG computations to the statistics and starting assumptions used), which in the extreme case encourages "gaming" -- hopefully the Innovation Australia committee formed to judge applications will be sensible enough to uniformize claims against some AGO standard.

Likewise, while "fuel efficiency improvements" are clearly covered, and things like "production efficiency improvements" are clearly out, this brings up a grey area related to the embodied/complete life-cycle GHG and energy costs of the vehicle.

Based on the limited examples given, it sounds like a technology that improves fuel efficiency, but where those improvements are entirely offset by the "invisible" increased GHG/energy involved in production, would still qualify.

Which is absurd from an outcomes perspective, and clearly comes back to the lack of methodology and standard prescribed for the GHG/energy computations.

All in all, a good effort, but unless something comes from the consulation sessions I think it'll miss the mark for the Stream B players (ie. non major vehicle producers).

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3720
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by coulomb » Wed, 04 Feb 2009, 05:23

Mark T wrote:Was the light plane guy Howie Hughes with his Roadie EV ?
He started by saying that his name always gets a laugh. "My name is Howard Hughes and I produce aircraft". So yes, it sounds like it.

gpsnettrack
Groupie
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue, 13 Jan 2009, 07:28
Real Name: Alan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by gpsnettrack » Wed, 04 Feb 2009, 06:22

At least there is 911's better than MX5's anyday Image

Now to get all the Qld together, I am making a list and checking it twice.   Email me alan@gpsnettrack.com.au   also look at http://planet.betterplace.com/group/bet ... eaustralia re EV

Al

gpsnettrack
Groupie
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue, 13 Jan 2009, 07:28
Real Name: Alan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by gpsnettrack » Wed, 04 Feb 2009, 19:20

More info on the fund and other possible funding.
http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/Manufactu ... Paper.aspx
http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/Manufactu ... 202008.pdf
http://minister.innovation.gov.au/Carr/ ... URSAY.aspx

I also found a 30 page document called , just have to find the link again.
A NEW CAR PLAN
FOR A GREENER FUTURE

Alan
Image

fuzzy-hair-man
Groupie
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 16:40
Location: Canberra

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Wed, 04 Feb 2009, 21:56

coulomb wrote: 2) This is not for production; this is for preproduction, R&D, and proof of concept. It needs to feed into some production process that is not funded, and which benefits the environment and Australian industry.
It seems this could include developing conversions of existing models or developing conversion kits couldn't it?
coulomb wrote: 4) EVs might have a hard case to sell; one attendee noted in question time that Garnaut stated that EVs using coal based electricity are 30% worse for GHG than comparable petrol vehicles. Regardless of whether you believe that, you might have trouble justifying your GHG benefits.
You could truthfully say that electric cars deliver a vast improvement in efficientcy and CAN result in zero emissions from use when powered by green energy. Both of those seem worthwhile contributions to me.

If you ask me the quality of the fuel source has to be considered as well, petrol or diesel are much higher quality fuels than coal. Comparing CO2 emissions of a EV run from a coal fired power station to a ICE running on petrol doesn't seem a fair comparison to my mind, especially when coal is acknowledged as the dirtiest fuel around.

How efficient and clean do you think a power station could be if it ran on a high quality fuel such as petrol? or natural gas? or LPG? rather that the low quality fuel that is coal? An apples to apples comparison would start with the same or a comparable fuel source IMHO and include all the economies of scale benefits of centralized power generation, ie you can't say my portable genset runs on petrol and is only 25% (I don't know) efficient and use this as a basis for figuring out green house gas emissions.

both ICEs and power generation on a large scale can use natural gas right? I wonder what a comparison of the CO2 emissions would look like?

Volta
Noobie
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 00:30
Real Name: Dave Waplington
Location: Perth WA

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by Volta » Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 00:35

Take heart gentlemen, and ladies. Here in sunny WA we only use coal for around 50% of power production. The rest is natural gas and renewables. And what about Tassie? they have hydro and lots of it. I've used these figures in my submission. Coal isn't the only source of fuel for power stations.
Volta

I, Claudius
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed, 21 May 2008, 18:03
Location: Sydney

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by I, Claudius » Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 01:05

Volta wrote: Take heart gentlemen, and ladies. Here in sunny WA we only use coal for around 50% of power production. The rest is natural gas and renewables. And what about Tassie? they have hydro and lots of it. I've used these figures in my submission. Coal isn't the only source of fuel for power stations.


You might want to take a look at the NGA Factors workbook (previously the AGO Factors & Methods Workbook) for figures that the Innovation Australia Committee would probably accept.

In particular, the Full fuel cycle EF figures in Table 39, which gives the full cycle emissions factors for electricity purchased by end users (like us when charging our EVs), based on the average energy mix in each state.

Tassie is the clear leader at 0.13kg kgCO2-e/kWh. The other states are more or less the same, and range from 0.98 for WA/SA, through to 1.06 for NSW/ACT... and then a jump to Victoria at 1.3! (for obvious reasons)

So, here's a couple questions that all of us who own a "green" EV but don't buy green power should ask ourselves: how many kms/kWh (*from the plug*) does your EV conversion need to get to come off cleaner than it was as an ICE? And how many does it actually get? The conclusions often come as a surprise! Image

juk
Groupie
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun, 02 Mar 2008, 02:53
Real Name: Craig
Location: Perth

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by juk » Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 01:27

Who cares that coal creates more emissions. Those emissions come from coal, not from the car. When the hell was it unacceptable to buy a toaster if you going to run it from coal. How efficient is an ICE powered toaster anyway?

Coal is the problem, in about a billion different ways, from sulphur dioxide emissions to nitrous oxides to arsenic, to mercury, to cadmium to tellurium. For example:

World Coal fired power plants emit roughly 50 tons of Hg into the air annually, so we could save the equivalent of 20% of the annual emissions from this source: 1 gram of mercury is enough to contaminate 1 ton of fish (at the FDA limit of 1 part per million).

Electric cars aren't dirty because the electricity is. Electric cars are the future of clean green transport. Dirty coal is a different problem, and one that in my mind should be addressed first.

I, Claudius
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed, 21 May 2008, 18:03
Location: Sydney

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by I, Claudius » Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 14:32

juk wrote: Who cares that coal creates more emissions.


Well, I imagine that the Innovation Australia committee who will be responsible for judging Green Car Innovation Fund applications will probably care...

The primary objective of the Fund is to encourage investment in technologies that can demonstrate a marked reduction in green house gases (as measured by CO2 equivalency), and based on the presentation I attended is the first hurdle for any applicant to address -- if one was to make an application to the fund for EVs purely on their own merits, without carefully stating any assumptions related to indirect emissions, I'd have to assume there's a good chance it would be rejected out of hand unfortunately.
juk wrote: Electric cars are the future of clean green transport.


No argument there.

gpsnettrack
Groupie
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue, 13 Jan 2009, 07:28
Real Name: Alan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by gpsnettrack » Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 16:04

You would be suprised what may or may not qualify.


Fo example one of our products is a fleet management tracking system.

It "tracks" you live on google earth and reports via SMS and daily reports and a live flashing button on the operators screen when a vehicle is over the set speed limit. If every new vehicle was fitted with a simular type device they are only couple of hundred dollars in bulk, then it would slow down the majority of drivers esp fleet drivers as duty of care would have management looking at the daily reports. This would then save fuel etc. The system has a lot more but this is just an example.

What I feel is needed is the government to help set up a think tank consortium for the majority of us smaller individuals that wouldnt qualify on our own but would as a group.

I would be willing to buy shares in the consortium


Alan
Image
Last edited by gpsnettrack on Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 05:14, edited 1 time in total.

I, Claudius
Noobie
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed, 21 May 2008, 18:03
Location: Sydney

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by I, Claudius » Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 16:26

gpsnettrack wrote: You would be suprised what may or may not qualify.
Fo example one of our products is a fleet management tracking system.
<snip>
This would then save fuel etc.
This wouldn't surprise me if it qualified.

If this is a system that is:

* new to the applicant (they were quite specific that the Fund only covers technologies that are new to the applicant, the idea being to foster innovation instead of retrospectively paying for existing tech),

* and if the fleet is comprised of some number of cars (they were also quite specific that applications need to be for cars only... unless this ultimately changes based on the negative responses they received on this limitation)

* and if you can demonstrate significant emissions and fuel savings

then afaik this would definitely qualify for competitive consideration.

fuzzy-hair-man
Groupie
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 16:40
Location: Canberra

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 18:55

It seems a little like the problem is that with petrol cars and transportation can be viewed in isolation, with electric cars we tie our emissions impact to that of the electricity producers.

The green car initiative is limited to cars and probably can't make assumptions about how the electricity sector might be cleaned up or become more efficient so it's then stuck with a worse case (current electricity production).

Perhaps an argument could be made by using the government's renewable energy and clean coal targets to provide a forecast of EV emissions into the future? do these targets make any realistic difference anyway?

I wonder if a deal couldn't be done with electricity companies so a EV can be sold with the charging station setup by the power company and metered so that the user can track power usage but also so that the EV can be powered by green power sort of like the infrastructure and services provided for payTV? yes they could charge elsewhere but the majority of charging should be at home, they could be locked into green power for several years after buying the car???

I think the capacity of EVs to promote growth and grow demand for renewables might be a good thing and help get more growth of the renewable energy sector in Australia.

juk
Groupie
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun, 02 Mar 2008, 02:53
Real Name: Craig
Location: Perth

Green Car Innovation Fund

Post by juk » Thu, 05 Feb 2009, 19:25

I, Claudius wrote:Well, I imagine that the Innovation Australia committee who will be responsible for judging Green Car Innovation Fund applications will probably care...


That depends which of the two faces of our two faced government you believe. This is the same government that subsidises the commodore and the falcon, two of the most fuel inefficient cars in production anywhere in the world. So when they turn around and say we care about creating efficient cars whilst subsidising inefficient ones at the expense of more efficient ones you've got to call shenanigans.

When they choose to stop the use of my taxes to prop up an industry which has become a dinosaur then maybe i'll change my mind.

Stuff like this doesn't help:
Image

Post Reply