Page 2 of 2

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Thu, 26 Feb 2009, 18:46
by Johny
I know I'll be stoned (thrown by mob type stoned) for suggesting this, but you could carry a small generator and a tent for just-in-case. Cheaper than getting stuck and towed or destroying the battery pack from "just that little bit" more.
It's not a hybrid, it's a portable EV charge station.

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Thu, 26 Feb 2009, 19:00
by antiscab
thats a good suggestion
if the genset isnt meant for driving forever, just emergencies, then it is a good idea.
a little 2kw unit might take some time to charge, but a 2kw genny and 10L of petrol isn't that big.

Matt

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Thu, 26 Feb 2009, 19:18
by zeva
MikeG wrote: onboard or trailer gensets would be easier and cheaper guys.
My concern with this is that it's a bit hypocritical.. It's basically turning the EV into a hybrid, but gensets are (usually) much less efficient and less clean than ICEs in production vehicles, and towing a trailer in itself sucks up energy.

I think it'd look better to have the vehicle trained/trucked from Perth, and openly admit that range makes BEVs unsuitable for nullarbor crossings.

The "little emergency generator" would be a sensible move though.
MikeG wrote: BTW I've got some preliminary prices on trucking EVs from Perth to Canberra - you're looking at $700 insured (not bad).

Yes in the past I've sent cars in both directions, sending them east (Perth to Canberra for example) isn't too bad, but sending cars West costs about twice as much! Apparently because there's more "stuff" coming west than going east, so there's more free space on the eastbound trucks, making it cheaper.

The train to Sydney + 300km option is sounding good to me.. That is, if I haven't managed to build my Hypermiler in time.. Image

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Feb 2009, 16:13
by MikeG
zeva wrote:
MikeG wrote: onboard or trailer gensets would be easier and cheaper guys.
My concern with this is that it's a bit hypocritical.. It's basically turning the EV into a hybrid, but gensets are (usually) much less efficient and less clean than ICEs in production vehicles, and towing a trailer in itself sucks up energy.
What car ICEs are you talking about? You mean the things that are bristling with emissions equipment, and running water pumps and such. Sorry, a generator running at peak torque all day long is way more efficient, as it's at its most efficeient load all the time, where as non-CVT car engines are usually majorly compromised. E.g. My 200SX engine (SR20DET) has peak efficiency (off boost) around 5000rpm, yet it idles along on the freeway at around 3000rpm, so at best its going to achieve around 7L/100km (run from full to empty on the freeway without stops)

If it were a NA SR20DE, it'd get more like 5, but that's due to the lower compression in the turbo engine making the power delivery less efficient unless on boost.

Now lets look at a 2-litre petrol gen, or 2-litre diesel gen. We're talking probably something like 5-litres and 3-litres respectively per 100km humming along. These motors are tuned for efficiency at peak torque, so have a very peaky powerband, and hence are not compromised at all. Maybe if you were talking a BMW M5 engine with its infinitely variable timing and lift, you might have a point... But there are very few engines like that, especially of the fuel efficient economical kind.

Image

...and I always thought hybrid was a multi-drive system like the old Priuses, that have a ICE crank and an electric motor to the driveshaft rather than multi-powered electric drive systems.

Surely you're not saying that a solar car is a hybrid because it doesn't rely on its batteries alone??? Does that make "electric" trains a non-EV because they use grid power directly?

I think regardless of the power source, if the drive is an electric motor, then we're talking an electric vehicle.

Perhaps this is off topic, but without going into purist values of what is a hybrid and what is an electric vehicle, the aim is to get the vehicles from Perth to Canberra, and there is no means without taking months to do it, of getting them here under electric-only power - even by train, which is diesel.

Image
zeva wrote:
MikeG wrote: BTW I've got some preliminary prices on trucking EVs from Perth to Canberra - you're looking at $700 insured (not bad).

Yes in the past I've sent cars in both directions, sending them east (Perth to Canberra for example) isn't too bad, but sending cars West costs about twice as much! Apparently because there's more "stuff" coming west than going east, so there's more free space on the eastbound trucks, making it cheaper.

The train to Sydney + 300km option is sounding good to me.. That is, if I haven't managed to build my Hypermiler in time.. Image
    

Keep in mind that the return trip will be twice as expensive by train too...

That and you should note that there are some serious hills on the leg from Sydney to Canberra, so keep in mind, that unless you have regen braking, you're going to use alot more power than you save going down hill, going up the hills...

It might be worth setting a minimum range capability for cars coming from Sydney in the convoy, and then setting a 75% safety margin (if the range is 100km, only travel 75km at a time).

Also, has anyone considered the media effect of a convoy of EVs with gen sets travelling across the nullabor? it would be great coverage on the lead-up to the open day...

Just my 2c worth - not wishing to offend anyone, just my view...

Mike.

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Feb 2009, 17:41
by woody
MikeG wrote:That and you should note that there are some serious hills on the leg from Sydney to Canberra, so keep in mind, that unless you have regen braking, you're going to use alot more power than you save going down hill, going up the hills...
I have a GPS log of that trip somewhere if anyone wants it, unfortunately it has no altitude info, but there are some huge hills as you jump over the southern highlands and the great dividing range. (130kW Commodore eats them, but little cars struggle).

cheers,
Woody

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Feb 2009, 18:33
by zeva
MikeG wrote: ...and I always thought hybrid was a multi-drive system like the old Priuses, that have a ICE crank and an electric motor to the driveshaft rather than multi-powered electric drive systems.
For interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_h ... ies_hybrid (the upcoming Chevy Volt hybrid uses a series layout)
MikeG wrote: That and you should note that there are some serious hills on the leg from Sydney to Canberra, so keep in mind, that unless you have regen braking, you're going to use alot more power than you save going down hill, going up the hills...

.. unless you can just roll down them, in which case you're using that gravitational potential energy gained while climbing the hill to push the vehicle through the air down the other side - energy you would otherwise need to source from the batteries.. Image Sorry just being pedantic - and/or getting defensive about my *ahem* primitive DC conversion.. (Many hills are indeed too steep and/or long to just roll down without brakes, which equals wasted energy in the absence of regen.)

And I certainly agree with the minimum range + safety margin idea.

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Mar 2009, 01:33
by BG
Hi Ian
The numbers you originally posted sound about right.
Take a look at this:
Desert Rose EV
I think John Swenson was suffering ill health and the project had stalled somewhat - If it wasn't completed it must be close!
Like a solar car without the extra weight and drag of solar cells.. could be very formidable indeed.

Ben

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Mar 2009, 01:37
by BG

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Mar 2009, 01:53
by Electrocycle
MikeG wrote:My 200SX engine (SR20DET) has peak efficiency (off boost) around 5000rpm, yet it idles along on the freeway at around 3000rpm, so at best its going to achieve around 7L/100km (run from full to empty on the freeway without stops)

If it were a NA SR20DE, it'd get more like 5, but that's due to the lower compression in the turbo engine making the power delivery less efficient unless on boost.
Turbos usually get better efficiency on the highway than n/a.
Even though the turbo isn't running real boost, it does seem to increase the thermal efficiency of the engine at highway cruising speeds and loads.
My old turbo Silvia also got 7L/100km on the highway, and I could only manage 7.2L/100km out of an old 1.6L Corolla!

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Mar 2009, 02:54
by zeva
BG: Very interesting, thanks for the link. 1kW at 90km/h sounds good, that'd offer a range of 1800km on my MX5's battery pack!! (Neglecting the extra weight effecting rolling resistance, of course..)

I wonder why they went for such a wide design? Seems like they're increasing frontal area unnecessarily - it looks like a solar car without the solar! In which case, why not have solar panels? (Although there might not be enough surface area for continuous power, I'm starting to believe many vehicles could benefit from having solar panels.. especially if they get parked out in the sun all day while their owner is working, for example.)

And interesting that the specs say "Suspension: Front: Double wishbone".. hmm not sure how they'd fit wishbones in those wheel cowlings? Must be wishbones inside the body with some weird struts going down to the wheel axles.

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Mar 2009, 03:18
by Tritium_James
1kW @ 90 is even better than the solarcars, so losing the array must make some difference.

2 sq m of solar panels on a car left out in the sun all day gets you about 50km range per day, using a very efficient vehicle design. This was the concept behind the "UltraCommuter" car that ran in the last World Solar Challenge - when used as a commuter vehicle, 90% of commutes in Australia could be done entirely on solar.

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Mar 2009, 04:31
by acmotor
Hoops, check out the solartaxi's front suspensers.

Image

TJ, solar is only 1kW/sqm at 100% efficiency panel (dreams) and costs lots, and works when the sun is out and overhead and the street trees pruned and not shadowed by the bus in the other lane and no bird droppings (mon/poly crystaline) and gee the vehicle is hot when you come back to it after sitting in the sun and....

But then...
It is a great boost to an electric vehicle (a road registerable type !)
for added/total recharge for short runs.

In my thinking, solar (with battery backup) will struggle unless Autralian vehicle categories and ADRs start allowing for NEV and small commuter categories.

Right now, IMHO you are better to put the solar panels on the shed roof, supply the grid and charge off the grid. Flame me !

Solartaxi is a good example. 800W of panels produced a range increase from 300 (just battery) to 400km (with solar trailer)( from Louis's own numbers to me ). However both zebras in the vehicle alone (no trailer) would give 500km !

The real 'solar' challenge is to come up with an ADRed vehicle category that can make use of the limited amount of on board solar power.
The event itself and the technologies that have resulted are fantastic. One only has to follow the performance over the years, but how to apply it to the general public ?

That should stir things up !!!! Image



Re Perth to Canberra....

I raise the topic again re crossing the paddock.
'Tow charging.' (AC EV with regen)

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Mar 2009, 15:51
by MikeG
Electrocycle wrote:
Turbos usually get better efficiency on the highway than n/a.
Even though the turbo isn't running real boost, it does seem to increase the thermal efficiency of the engine at highway cruising speeds and loads.
My old turbo Silvia also got 7L/100km on the highway, and I could only manage 7.2L/100km out of an old 1.6L Corolla!


I would have thought that to be because the Silvia has a better Cd.

MikeG

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Fri, 27 Mar 2009, 20:53
by EV2Go
MikeG wrote:
Electrocycle wrote:
Turbos usually get better efficiency on the highway than n/a.
Even though the turbo isn't running real boost, it does seem to increase the thermal efficiency of the engine at highway cruising speeds and loads.
My old turbo Silvia also got 7L/100km on the highway, and I could only manage 7.2L/100km out of an old 1.6L Corolla!


I would have thought that to be because the Silvia has a better Cd.

MikeG
I don’t think the Silvia has that great of a Cd, my 180sx (same chassis / drive train as the Silvia) probably has a better one at .31

Andrew is right on the highway I used to get around 600km + per tank, even with some serious engine mods and a fairly large turbo, the trick is keep the foot steady and it can return great economy.

EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Posted: Sat, 28 Mar 2009, 05:50
by Electrocycle
yeah, the old corolla had to work a bit harder to maintain speed, and it was a carby engine :)