EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by zeva » Wed, 07 Jan 2009, 03:00

Hi all,

So I hear there's going to be an invasion of EVs from the eastern seaboard into Canberra for the AEVA AGM in October - good stuff. And I was thinking.. I wonder if it'd be possible to drive an EV there from Perth?

It's about 3600km so a "normal" EV with say 100km range would be a little unreasonable. (Even if charging were possible along the nullarbor, it'd still take about a month each way.) But lately I've been giving a lot of thought to just how efficient we could make a vehicle.. and the numbers seem promising..

Say we can make an aero reverse trike (like the Aptera) with a drag coefficient Cd = 0.1 and 1m^2 frontal area (no side-by-side seating obviously). Assume total weight of 400kg, and that we get some really low rolling resistance tires with a Crr = 0.005 (wouldn't be normal car tires).

At 80km/h, this vehicle would use:
- 655W for aero drag
- 435W for rolling resistance (formulas here)

So about 1.1kW combined. With a good BLDC motor and efficient drivetrain, we might only lose 10% between batteries and wheels? So around 1.2kW needed from the batteries to maintain 80km/h.

100kg of K2 26650EV cells would then offer over 10 hours of driving, i.e over 800km per charge! So ~5 days from Perth to Canberra, using about $11 worth of electricity - what a great tech demo that would be!

(Do all my numbers check out? Anything I'm missing?)
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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by acmotor » Wed, 07 Jan 2009, 03:28

Big challenge ??
I like the idea....
Just thinking here....
One or two passengers at 83kg each (NCOP14), is that included in the 400kg ?

12+kWh of battery ? options for solar assist ? this may help considerably at this low discharge rate.

Budget $50k ?

Just thinking still...
How about a normal conversion loaded to the hilt with lithium and 400km range ? Would the public identify more with that ? after all, you could just order an Aptera (and probably have DPI reject it Image)

I still like your idea though. Image   
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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by Mesuge » Wed, 07 Jan 2009, 07:54

Just thinking small..
:@ )

Guys, the definitive validation of EVs maturing will come only by the day when an EV be it bike, quad, single buggy/car, or truck wins at least one stage at the DAKAR RALLYE (ex Paris Dakar), which is now in full swing in South America. This is the biggest event in the motor sport at least for large chunk of the global media audience. For instance VW based largely their diesel model campaign on their Dakar team. This year 0,5-1M people personally attended the show at the start!

Usually the refueling points are not less than 250km apart, so I doubt the organizers (since it's sponsored by oilies) will allow for some special EV related rules/exceptions. So, some sort of battery/cartridge swaping at fuel stops would be needed, lets say rotating 3-4x battery packs per stage and some as spare. And you can have repair/service support crew in other vehicles. Averaging 130-150km/h or more in wild terrain eats power like crazy, so most likely two/three wheelers with aptera grade aerodynamics should be considered first. In my opinion this would be very exciting undertaking. I hope you get the daily coverage in your TV as well, see the linked videos if you don't know what I'm talking about..

From the trek profile data and average speeds, one can easily
calculate/guesstimate the energy demands for each stage. Or better
still from GPS data of some competitor out there if you got access to it, see the links.

http://www.dakar.com/2009/DAK/LIVE/us/400/index.html

Stage/profile in detail:
http://www.dakar.com/2009/DAK/LIVE/us/4 ... cours.html
http://tracking.dakar.com/ASO/index_us.html


--
!To give you some very nice quality videos:
For example here's the stage 2:

http://ctwm.visual.cz/ct/high/RallyeDak ... 040109.wmv
High quality (600Kbps WMV stream); you can increase/decrease [04] to get previous/next day stage summary

TV quality (1500Kbps WMV stream)
http://ctwm.visual.cz/ct/tv/RallyeDakar ... 040109.wmv

PS obviously this will need a Bahrain Prince or someone similar/crazy fan to fund it hah..
Last edited by Mesuge on Tue, 06 Jan 2009, 21:10, edited 1 time in total.
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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by antiscab » Wed, 07 Jan 2009, 08:03

lol
maybe both of us could lend all our lithium to rob for the triton.
between us we'v have 240v 200AH, 288v 90AH, and two strings of 288v 40AH.
that should get us some range :D

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Post by Simon » Wed, 07 Jan 2009, 09:18

I like the idea of a super aero trike! As far as I know the longest distance between service stations on the Nullarbor is 200km. So range wouldn't be a problem!


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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by moemoke » Wed, 07 Jan 2009, 22:50

I wonder if you could borrow the Zebra battery from the 'Solar Taxi' or
maybe just borrow the whole vehicle Image
Didn't it have a 400k range?
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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by djsharpe » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 17:57

Regardless of the range your EV will do, you still have to replace the energy. So to use my own EV as an example, for Melb to Canb I will be taking with me 3 off NG3s able to run off 3 ph power or 3 separate single ph circuits. From a run I did this week, 105 ks on one charge it required 16.6kWhrs to recharge (from my PV array) so it will need roughly 16kWhrs ex grid per 100ks. The 3 NG3s can supply 10kWs so will need 1.6hrs per 100ks. Now if your range is 400ks, you will need even more charging time because of the greater mass to carry and need more than 6.4 hrs to charge. If you could do 800ks the charging time could be overnight rest time Ill grant you though.

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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by zeva » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 19:22

dj: What I had in mind was definitely driving all day then charging at night, just from one single-phase outlet.. the secret to driving non-stop all day in a battery electric vehicle (on a single charge) being the very high vehicle efficiency.

Particularly in the case of a Perth to Canberra run, vehicle efficiency becomes paramount. Normal petrol vehicles are a hugely inefficient way to move people around, so electric conversions based on these vehicles unfortunately inherit much of the same inefficiency (primarily due to weight and poor aerodynamics).

It sounds like your EV is using about 160 Wh/km, which is pretty good for a normal conversion. The hypothetical (but not implausible) vehicle I describe above uses 15 Wh/km @ 80km/h! So for every hour of charge time, or every kilowatt-hour put into the pack, it would get over 10x more range than a typical EV conversion.

I don't think there'd be any other practical way to drive a BEV across the nullarbor.. (other than maybe a genset on a trailer, but then it's just a PHEV.)
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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by djsharpe » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 19:51

I have a Honda Insight that is very light at about 800kgs. It will do 2.9litres per 100ks. At current prices that is $2.90 for 100ks. Now my EV as I said needed 16kWhrs to do 100ks-mains electricity $0.15 per kWhr $2.40 too close to the price of the petrol car. No wonder car companies weren't interested in electrics whilst fuel is cheap. The Insight by the way will do 2 litres per 100k if you let it run at idle speed in top gear but that is about 30-40 kph. The ultra low energy vehicle you describe is too small & impractical to be of universal interest. WA members are better served putting their cars on the train.
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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by antiscab » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 20:10

ive always considered a honda insight to be the ultimate conversion vehicle.
its a pity theyre so rare, and yet cant be grey imported :(

btw, is that 2.9L/100km at 110kmh? or some lower speed?

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Post by zeva » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 20:26

djsharpe wrote: WA members are better served putting their cars on the train.

Oh come on, where's the fun in that? What if Henry Ford had said "Oh we're better off just sticking to horses" Image

Seriously though, I think you're talking apples and oranges.. The Insight is one of the most efficient petrol burners around, helped in part by being a hybrid I'm sure, but also relatively good aerodynamics and low weight as you mentioned. A more fair comparison would be against the fuel consumption of your EV prior to conversion.

And while I agree that a little aero trike would not be for everyone, the purpose of such projects is really just to get people thinking.. "Why does it cost me $500 in petrol to drive my car across Australia when that thing can do it for $10 worth of electrons?"

(Imagine how much fuel could be saved if we had more aerodynamic trucks.. They typically have an awful drag coefficient around 0.6-0.8.. Getting them down to 0.1 might be tough, but 0.3 wouldn't be unreasonable - and they'd be using half the fuel!)
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Post by acmotor » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 20:35

Electric Vehicles - the new absolute power ! Thanks for that idea DS ! Image

Hoops, why not just electrify a standard trike ? You can buy DPI approved frames and work from there. (I've pondered that one) Ding Bob
You would need to work on the aerodynamics but at least not have to start from scratch.

Solartaxi is 70Wh/km in approx 400kg (just the front part).
Are you optomistic thinking of 15Wh/km ?

I do feel that the public need examples of EVs that they can identify with.

DS, I am thinking along the lines of only one charge per day (overnight for as many hours as not driving). If I can only drive for 4 hours (400km ?) that means 20 hours charge... off a 10A socket gives the best part of 48kWh. So I need to target roughly 120Wh/km.
On seriously flat ! open roads that may be possible.


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Post by djsharpe » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 21:11

I cannot say what a Charade used to do on petrol. For my tests on the elec Charade & the Insight I use my normal economic driving techniques The EV is not normally driven much faster than 75kph when distance near its range is involved. The Insight about 80-100kph. The latter has a lean burn feature that occurs above a certain speed at constant throttle. It will still do less than 4 litres/100ks at 100kph. DS

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EV run to Canberra.. from Perth?

Post by mickles » Sat, 10 Jan 2009, 01:44

Hi Matt,

You said the Honda Insight can not be "grey imported" - what does that mean?

Dave.
antiscab wrote: ive always considered a honda insight to be the ultimate conversion vehicle.
its a pity theyre so rare, and yet cant be grey imported :(

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Post by Mesuge » Sat, 10 Jan 2009, 03:17

Dave, it depends on your aussie legislation (emissions, lights, etc.), it might be easier to import/legalize RHD version from UK (rare) than LHD from continental Europe (super rare) or USA (rare).

Sadly, usually these kind of low volume production programs have limited type approval, so it's hard to legalize later in different regions.

Just the aluminium frame makes it a long lasting vehicle, sort of the best candidate for multi generation EV donor, your grand grand kids might drive it.

As of now only Audi, Jaguar and Lotus "mass produce/d" this kind of vehicles. They are expensive in any milage, shape or form, nowadays many diy people scout for these rare opportunities..
http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclope ... minum.html

Several guys on the british Battery Vehicle Society established some sort of ad hoc information network for Insights (check the forum above), lets say a car gets crashed in France, it's immediately targeted and later chopped for spare parts in their EV/PHEV projects..

At one point I was also heavily interested in "grey import" of Insight for diy conversion purposes, but it's virtually impossible to make it street legal in continental EU afterwards. Perhaps there is some sort of UK-Australia commonwealth type of legislation, which could make it easier for you, good luck.
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Post by antiscab » Sat, 10 Jan 2009, 08:38

under the current rules,
you cannot import a car privately (as in grey import) if has already been sold here previously by the company that manufactured it, and it is newer than 1990.

unfortunately the honda insight falls into this category.
as do all prius, with the exception of the first generation which wasnt sold here.

there is one way to get one however.
you have to go over and live in japan (or where every you are importing it from) for 1-2years and buy an insight
then you can import it as a personal vehicle.
not quite worth the effort for a car imho.

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Post by Simon » Fri, 16 Jan 2009, 01:29

I thought of you Ian when I saw this video Image


http://xof1.com/

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Post by drowe67 » Fri, 16 Jan 2009, 15:43

djsharpe wrote: I cannot say what a Charade used to do on petrol.


My 1.3 litre Charade did around 40 mpg on the highway.
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Post by gpsnettrack » Sun, 18 Jan 2009, 05:45

A couple of questions ...

Re advertising.. has anyone thought of doing the Solar Challenge ... separate category than the main one.

Importing ... has anyone imported a full electric vehicle from the states.. I already have a Porsche 924 "Petrol" but would like to import one from www.evporsche.com first then convert the 924 later.

The reason is you can get a lot of 924 and 944' ( think RX7 shape ) under $5000 in Australia in very good condition. Having a running 911 to show the powers to be hopefully will make the others eai to register.

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Post by Thalass » Mon, 19 Jan 2009, 01:59

That video is hilarious! If nothing else, the UFO fear-factor would make a car like that worth it! hahahahaha


A skinny tadpole trike would be a good vehicle for this, and could make people re-think their daily commute 4WD (not that i can talk, though some people will say that a Subaru isn't a real 4wd).

Tuarn has a point that this sort of ultra-efficient car can create a bit of alienation (no pun intended), but it is probably the most practical (if not cheapest) way to get across the nullabor in a reasonable amount of time.

Regarding trucks, there are these things which have been around for a year or two, though I've never seen any of them. But they'd be much better than the current fleet. And they look cool! haha

As for trikes, I'm rather partial to the Carver, and I believe another company is using this tech to make an electric version. Of course the nearest dealer is in NZ, so good luck getting one.


If AEVA do this, then there will definitely need to be sponsors - I imagine EV conversion companies like Blade and EVShop will be at the top of the list, but other companies and places (it'd be good for tourism) and of course you'd have to get Today Tonight and ACA/60 minutes involved too. But it'd be a great project!

I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.

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Post by zeva » Mon, 19 Jan 2009, 02:16

Thalass wrote: Regarding trucks, there are these things which have been around for a year or two, though I've never seen any of them. But they'd be much better than the current fleet. And they look cool! haha

Image I know we shouldn't anthropomorphize vehicles but GOOD GOD that thing is ugly!! (In my humble opinion..)
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Post by MikeG » Thu, 26 Feb 2009, 17:12

onboard or trailer gensets would be easier and cheaper guys. BTW I've got some preliminary prices on trucking EVs from Perth to Canberra - you're looking at $700 insured (not bad).

We will have to wait until early July to get firm quotes though... And there may be room for bulk discounts (if we can say fill up a truck or two).
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Post by MikeG » Thu, 26 Feb 2009, 17:20

Train is cheaper (and includes driver passage) BUT only goes to Adelaide or Sydney, then you need to drive at least 300km to Canberra (more from Adelaide).
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Post by antiscab » Thu, 26 Feb 2009, 18:22

driving 300km is totally doable.
im assuming there are towns every 80km or so between sydney and canberra?

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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Thu, 26 Feb 2009, 18:41

antiscab wrote:I'm assuming there are towns every 80km or so between sydney and canberra?
The issue might be from Goulburn to Canberra there's only really Collector in between and last time I went through Collector I could even find a petrol station. It's about 100 km from Goulburn to Canberra. There's a few winerys near Lake George if you promise a few thirsty people turning up with nothing but free time while their EVs recharge they might let you recharge. Image

I just GoogleMaped it Goulburn to Canberra is 90km, other distances are about 70km Sydney-Campbelltown-Bowral-Goulburn if the 90km is too far you might be able to divert through Gunning but I'm not sure what's in Gunning either but it's bigger than Collector.

Edit: Another option would be coming in via Bungendore, ~68km from Goulburn then a 30 something hop into Canberra.
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