Swan TAFE eV Challenge 2007

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

Image WAEVA memeber Rod Dilkes prepared a last minute entry to this year's(2007) Swan TAFE eV Challenge in Midland on 27th October. Two other members, Andrew and Tuarn helped with pit and driving.
There are some pics on this website's photo album page.

The thought is that WAEVA should be mounting a team WAEVA entry for next year.

Any interest ?
Last edited by acmotor on Thu, 28 Oct 2077, 04:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Clay »

I was there too, both as a car builder and as a teacher whose school entered three cars (Class A winner #3, plus cars #4 in Class A2, Car #1 in Class b and car #2 in class C). If i get this right you guys finished second in class C?

You may have seen the Electrathon post from a few weeks ago which I put up. I'm a former eV Challenge committee member and I feel the competition has its limitations, particularly in terms of vehicle safety rules. No other competition like it worldwide or interestae has such lax safety standards - no roll-over protection, no side impact protection, seatbelts or proper helmets. The amount of near misses yesterday proved to me it will only be a matter of time before a major crash occurs.

The adoption of the Electrathon rules by CAMS for a late 2008 start date, the process for which is currently underway, not only alleviates these issues but allows for quicker cars to be built and raced on tracks without 100mm+ high kerbs to smack wheels on.

I guess my point is we would want WAEVA to be associated with an electric vehicle competition that encourages safe electric vehicles. I feel Electrathon is just that, while the eV Challenge is not. Many of the cars racing yesterday had little or no thought given to vehicle safety, and is that the image we as a group want for electric vehicles?

If you wish, have a look at the rules for electrathon at www.electrathonamerica.org as we haven't got a website up yet. You'll find them interesting reading...
Last edited by Clay on Fri, 29 Oct 2077, 13:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jpcw »

I think we need a real EV event. One that is designed for fully converted cars. Could be a little more risky for the car/driver as you would be driving a vehicle in potentially race car conditions but that would really show up what can be done. Once my car is finished I’d be willing to put it through its paces on a race track. It will be a little harder to compare cars but a couple of categories based on range, capacity etc could even things out.
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Post by Clay »

I did look at that, although for single seat cars rather than converted passenger cars, when contacting CAMS. The trouble is finding funding for racing. Small, single seat cars, starting with eV Challenge/Electrathon racers is an inexpensive way to begin racing electric vehicles.

I contacted the makers of the CORE fuel cell about using it to power a small racing car class. While interested, the production of the cell had not yet occured, making this a future possibility. A 21st century replacement for Formula Vee perhaps?

However as I was saying the last thing i can see WAEVA wanting is for a negative impression to be made to the public about electric vehicles. Safety has to be a paramount issue in any racing class for electric (and any other type) cars. The point is that the eV Challenge is not safe at the moment.

Maybe a single class for 'kit cars' with a tightly controlled specification could work - something like the fibreglass replacement Mini shells? Have them AWD with 4 motors, one per wheel, and a spec battery pack?

Might work...
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Post by jpcw »

I agree with you on the safety side, one of the reasons I'm not convinced about the REVA being imported into Aust without the normal safety checks and features.

Converted cars should be reasonable though as they are road legal and have already passed a lot of safety checks, the track could also be designed so that the speed is relatively limited. Not to mention that most converted EV's don't do too much past 100kmh so don't quite get up as fast as a racing car would.

The biggest problem would be the number of entries, I can’t see many conversions being done purely for the race, and therefore it would be relying on people entering their own cars. Trying to get enough of them in one place to have a race could be a problem.
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Post by Clay »

Therefore why events such as Electrathon and the eV Challenge are essential. Due to the low cost of production and the short build times, grids can be relatively large. Due to their small size performance would be about on par with a converted car.

As far as 'racing' road legal converted cars, this too could be problematic. Would WAEVA want to get the public down to watch an electric car race, only to have these road legal cars going slower than go-karts? If the top speeds are below 100km/h or thereabouts, this could happen.

Many aussies think electric cars are toys - a slow electric car race would only perpetuate this feeling further.

As I said in my first reply, I feel it is essential for organisations like WAEVA to endorse and participate in electric vehicle competitions, however WAEVA must also be careful what to participate in to project the right image for electric cars.

Participating in the eV Challenge is good, but our cars must then be safe, regardless of what the rulemakers choose to leave out - roll bars, seatbelts and side impact protection for example.

I'd be in (I already am)...
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Post by jpcw »

Don't worry I'm not speaking for WAEVA, nor am I suggesting that a race "would be good for the cause", or that what you are suggesting is a bad idea (in fact I support it 100%). I'm just saying "I'd" like to see an event that pushed converted cars to be a bit more competitive.

Personally I think road legal EV’s competing in a race would do more to dispel the myths than reinforce them, but it should not detract from other events like the ones you are talking about.
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Post by Thalass »

I think there should be both, really. Remember that most major new technology in ICE cars have come from motorsport. The same should apply to EVs. So a mixture of specialised racing, and road-legal type racing would be best. The specialised racing would have the freedom to try crazy new things, and the road-legal would be where this new stuff is applied to real cars and would be great advertising.

Also: EV rally would be awesome. :P
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Post by acmotor »

Image EVs in racing would have a hard time as they are 100 years (in the performance department) behind ICE unless you had a big budget. But come to think of it, the 1 to 5M$ price tag of a competitive Bathurst car would go a long way in A123s.
Who is going to put up the money though ? Sponsors need an excuse to spend such money.

I still like the idea of little 3 wheeled EVs that are affordable by folk with their heart in the EV world.
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Post by Rob M »

I think road racing is too complicated. Stick to something simple like drag racing where EV's can naturally shine.
Electric motors have great low end torque, you don't have to worry too much about battery capacity and going from zero to 100 k's is not too dangerous. Even a standing quarter mile is reasonably safe. At least it's in a straight line(hopefully).
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Post by Thalass »

It's a good starting point, yeah. There's a couple of videos on youtube with electric drag cars, and of course there's the Killacycle.


Aside from being rough on the cars, I think the WA Rally champ would be another contest worth looking into. The stages aren't that long, and there's time inbetween to swap batteries over (if not recharging). Of course it'd cost money like whoa, but it would rock and would prove that EVs can be tough.

But that's wishful thinking. hehe

*edit*

On doing a bit of digging, it seems there is a "clubman cup" series that is run in conjunction with the actual WARC series. The Donnelly River Rally, for example, is Total 158.34km (of which 117.34 km is competitive) for the WARC cars, while the Clubman series is 79.25km (58.51km competitive there).

Not outside the realm of the possible. It's no Bathurst 1000, but it'd be fun.
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Post by stuartri »

Clay,
I would be interested in finding out more about the proposed electrathon in Melbounre. We were the winners of the EV Challenge 2007 last weekend in WA for class C and the overall winner.

Team rEVheads car rEV1

I am most interested in starting up something in melbourne and would appreciate any information you have on progress made so far on a melbourne event so I do not spend time and effort on something already in progress.

I think the EV Challenge (despite some of your comments) is a fantastic event to promote and stimulate interest in electric vehicles in a fun environment and applaud such events regardless of the issues you have raised. As the benchmark in the event improved so will the safety standards as higher speeds are obtained.

I think a lot more competitors will be running the same battery pack as we did this year and hence the bar will be raised for next year.

Kindest Regards Stuart
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Post by Clay »

Stuart

Cheers for the interest - you guys certainly raised the bar this year. BTW we were the team next to you guys in the pits from Greenwood. I agree the eV Challenge is a great event, however you can't run an event like that and ignore safety, which seems to be the tactic of the rule makers. I'll shut up about that for now though.

As far as your battery pack goes i have already found a WA distributor for the NiMH batteries (one school was going to run the same batteries as you guys but they did not arrive in time for the race) and the range will certainly be up in 2008.

I approached CAMS in april this year regarding using some of my electric vehicle bits to design and race a single seat hillclimb car. I was going to run my Etek at 48V in a lightweight open wheeler.

CAMS got really keen and we went from there, firstly trying to design a formula that would be cheap-ish and green. Unfortunately the technology is 2-5 years away for that to happen.

In the end we went for the Electrathon series rules. They are well established, have sufficient safety standards, and the cars are capable of speeds high enough to make the event really stimulating.

The down side, particularly for you guys, is the requirement that the batteries be only sealed lead acid batteries, up to 30kg total weight. Your performance a couple of weekends ago have got me thinking about allowing a smaller weight of NiMH batteries, but I'd need comparison data. Battery technology is where electric cars will gain hugely at a production level, so why not at a grass-roots level?

We now have the rules before the CAMS technical committee, changed from the american rules only in the introduction of metric measurements and a local list of batteries, not yet complete. A couple of schools, mine included, over here are knocking up prototypes to test.

We have also taken one of the better eV Challenge rules and gone for a 70 minute race with 2 5 minute compulsory pit stops for driver changes. The stops will be timed and you need to spend at least 5 minutes in pit lane per stop, meaning the stops will not be rushed.

CAMS appear keen to promote the series nationally as a first step towards greener motorsport.

I'll keep you posted on the progress of the series and rules, but it would be great for someone on the east coast to be on board in the initial stages.
Last edited by Clay on Sat, 06 Nov 2077, 13:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by stuartri »

Clay,

Thanks for your feedback.

Hopefully I can make a suggestion not to limit the electrathon to SLA and allow innovation with other battery chemistries. SLA is not where the industry is heading and we should also be driving in the same direction maybe lagging the HEV market.

The beauty of the EVChallenge was that with a fixed battery capacity requirement, better battery technologies can be utilised in designs. If they did not allow this, we would not have been able to raise the bar like we did in this years competition.

I am in the process of designing in next years car and looking at another battery chemistry which will probably not be NiMH if the price comes out right.

It would be a shame for an Electrathon to be so limiting. I am not interested in competing with SLA but would love to compete in an Australian electrathon if the rules could be changed and be capacity dependant like the EVChallenge (In that area they are forward thinking - Safety I agree with your comments).

Just so you know, the battery pack I designed that won the race for us only weighed 7.25kg fully assembled.

If you need my assistance to put in comment to the Electrathon committee regarding other battery chemistires then please contact me at. I will be providing the EVChallenge with discharge data for the battery pack that I designed.

Kindest Regards Stuart Richards
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Post by MHSRULE!!!!! »

Image Well guess wat my team one EV 2007 so Image we wer car 10 and we kiked asss wee had plenty of power thnx to me setting us up at the start by staying low in the amps but still passing ppl yeh mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHA
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Post by Andrew »

well done dude. I'm hoping to race again this year and have my own team. so look out Image
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Post by acmotor »

I've just been looking at the rules for 2008 (I too drove in last year's event)

http://evchallenge.swantafe.wa.edu.au/default.asp

Somehow I feel that the event has had water tipped on it by limiting the Wh of batteries to a "lead acid with peukert effect" equivalent.
Along with the $1200 budget limit it has put a cap on the usefullness of this event for the EV cause. I know that this is essentailly a schools event and will probably stay that way now.
Just imagine if the Darwin to Adelaide sun race had a $1200 limit and a limit on the solar cell efficiency. (OK, now after 25? years and much development there are some limits required as the performance is outstanding) But you get my point.


So, what else is on offer for the public to take EVs seriously ??

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Post by stuartri »

To all I think a couple of things need to be put into perspective regarding the EVChallenge 2008 rules.

1. Allowing NON SLA packs (This is a step in the right direction)
==============================================================
From what I have read and the correspondence I have had the Watt Hours of the competition have not been limited in any real sense.

They are still set at 432WHours. In our case a 36V pack rated at 12AH = 432WH. As long as your pack meets the weight restrictions then all is ok.

Just so you know we won the Class C event and the overall trophy [Melbourne team rEVheads] running a compliant NiMH battery pack rated at 36V 12AH in the 2007 event (432WH).

Our fully constructed pack weighed 7.2KG which fits into the weight rules for this years event.

The weight restrictions have been put in place as a rough compliance tool to identify packs that are actually over the WH rating. While the weight limit may seem a blunt compliance tool it is a step in the right direction. As battery chemistries/manufacturer data are better understood the compliance check will evolve and allow objective assessment to be made and a pack/manufacturer compliance registry to be developed to further aid compliance checks. I am actually all for a compliance framework.

If you look into the Electrathon America and the Green Power Formula 24 rules both events have a compliance framework to identify valid battery packs. This is nothing new. These events have however taken the easy way out and excluded other battery chemistries from competing which I feel is not progressive.

The important thing to focus on is the fact that the EVChallenge committee have taken a step that these other events (even though well established) have not and that is to be open minded and allow other battery chemistries to compete and be certified.

What our performance showed last year is that other chemistries make for exciting racing and will raise the performance bar and indeed attention of Alternate energy technologies in the general community and hopefully gain some publicity.

In the long term this will mean the EVChallenge will get bigger and better over time. because of this our team will come back to WA this year from Melbourne and compete.

Moral of the story (Sorry for War and peace)
With a little research and correct battery selection better battery chemistries can be run that will comply with the weight restrictions in 2008.

2. Innovation in design and performance
======================================
Innovation in design and performance do go hand in hand with a $budget. While I do agree that the $1200 cap will in the short term restrict further technology improvements and hence performances to cars the committee have taken the initial steps that may help alleviate this constraint.

By creating Class C as the only class allowed to run NON SLA batteries the committee have taken the first step towards what I deem an open technology class.

The next logical progression I would feel (implemented in a couple of steps) is that like the Electathon America and the Green Power formula 24 events have done is remove budget from the equation and performance and safety standards go up

I do feel that no budget is not the next step for 2009 but a revised budget i.e $1500 - $2000 in the open technology class only. The reason for this as the budgets go up even with the constrained WH limit performance will be limited by the types of tracks and the safety issues as cars could potentially reach 50-60KM/Hr. From there a national competition is inevitable as vehicles are reaching 60km/hr+ will require more suitable tracks and safety standards.

Moral of this story
EVChallenge committee are moving forward
A group of us are drafting rules for a national competition
The CAMS AEC has been formed
   
Thanks Stuart

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Post by acmotor »

To all, I think Stuart's "couple of things" also need to be put in perspective !

Point 1
Sorry Stuart, I disagree. But don't get me wrong. Anything EV is better than petrol..... You see I went to ev challenges in Melbourne 20 years ago and the technology was much the same as you are running today albiet a little less solid state.
Whilst you drag everyone down to a lead acid peurkert effected Wh limit I for one will not be happy. The rules need to be x kg of battery of any chemistry. If that makes the vehicles go too fast for safety then reduce x for all chemistries.
How else will the best battery technology have it's true advantage ?
Can I possibly put it more bluntly ?
If you persist with lead acid thinking you are NOT ADVANCING EV TECHNOLOGY !

I wonder how the tesla would go with a nice set of lead acid batteries ?
Or would you limit the Wh instead ?

Hey, I use lead acid in my EV. It is cheap and nasty. It is NOT the basis for innovation and design.
For 100 years, what we have needed is better batteries. Don't stifle them now.
I consider that if, due to your rules, enterants in the challenge do not consider a battery technology more up market than lead acid as essential then it proves my point.

Point 2
You say that.... ."Innovation in design and performance do go hand in hand with a $budget. While I do agree that the $1200 cap will in the short term restrict further technology improvements and hence performances to cars the committee have taken the initial steps that may help alleviate this constraint."

If you agree that the budget is too small then increase it !


P.S. Don't always be led by America. They crushed the EV1 and scrapped the California initiative. It is good that you are trying to think for yourselves about the future. But create the future, not the lead acid past.
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Post by Clay »

Having been an entrant in every eV Challenge held since 2001, the performance of Stuart's team last year astounded me. Here was a new team, never having seen the other cars before, rock up all the way from Melbourne and re-write the rules for the competition. I have immense respect for that.

The 2008 rules are strange. However, upon deeper analysis, what stu says is correct. The Wh figure for non-SLA batteries has not been changed, however your battery pack must also now come in under a specified weight. I think it is a stupid idea really, but it is not quite as bad as it first seems. Using NiMH or LiPO batteries, I feel entrants could get in under the weight limit with the full 432Wh capacity.

Persisting with only SLA is not advancing technology - I agree. However from the committee's point of view (neither myself nor I assume Stuart - given he's in melbourne - are on the committee, although I used to be, but that's another story...) their main focus is on school entries. They may want to limit performance and have the event as a fun thing, not as a demonstration of advanced technology. If that is the case, I disagree with their line of thinking. However it might explain why the budget cap has not been changed - again.

My hunch is based on the little comment in the new battery technologies 'blog' I guess you could put it, saying that the committee do not want people doing over 60 laps in an hour. What a stupid, backward comment to make. If people are going to be progressive about developing and refining electric vehicle technology for this event, it is inevitable that distances travelled in 1 hour will improve year on year. To effectively 'cap' a limit on how many laps you can do by stating they want a limited distance covered in an hour, is utterly stupid. Why run the event then if people wish to think this way?

The committee's fear will be when people such as Stuart's team rock up and start banging out 50km/h+ laptimes. The rules as they stand have pathetic levels of inherent safety in them. Fine if you are tootling along Driving miss Daisy style in some dodgy 15km/h contraption, but for most of the more competitive cars 30km/h is more like the average speed. If you are doing 30km/h and you whack a kerb and roll the car, or if someone spins and the following car (doing 30km/h) impacts into the side of the spun car (both of which nearly happened on the practice day in 2007) the driver in both cases is in serious danger of harm.

While the US does have a poor record for EV innovation AC, they do at least make sure the drivers in their events are protected with reasonable, not over the top, levels of safety. If the rules mandated things like rollbars, bodywork to protect from side impacts, seatbelts, and proper helmets, increased speeds would not be the issue to the committee they are becoming.

However when you combine the effects of modern technology in batteries making the cars go faster for longer in the eV Challenge with the virtually non-existant safety regulations the committee is finding itself backed into a corner and are beginning to make what are percieved to be wierd rule choices.

To me the answer is simple. Improve safety, run the event at a track that does not have 150mm high kerbs, bump up the budget cap and go racing!

But what committee ever did things simply...
Last edited by Clay on Thu, 27 Mar 2008, 03:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by acmotor »

Clay,

Your respect for Stuart's team / vehicle is shared by me. Image
What I am saying is that that flash of light will be lost with the current (slow moving, scared) thinking. Image
Ok, the committee is thinking and (almost) moving, but in the same time the technology is screaming ahead. Their response is like that of a control freak. (I am not as diplomatic as you !)
If the technology is evolving then the event needs to evolve or be honest and state that it is not there for innovation and technology, just a quiet tootle.

I have commented earlier in this forum that I like the event, for what it is. I am now wishing to see where it may be heading (or not).
My comments are not meant to cause offence, however I have been around in the EV world for many years and it is the rules and regulations that hold back innovation. (other than vested interests) Does that include some lead acid battery manufacturers ? The EV1 was at first fitted with lead acid batteries due to vested interest. Fortunately someone woke up.

Yes, I agree with you on safety requirements. Make the safety follow the performance. Image
Yes, the US are ahead on that point, however it is a SWISS SOLARTAXI driving around the world. I rest my case ! Image

I made suggestions on this forum re safety. I guess along the lines you are thinking. e.g. the vehicle must be fitted with an effective roll bar and the vehicle will be lifted off the ground by it's roll bar pre-event (with a 100kg mass in the driver's seat) as a simple test.

If this is not the EV event to advance EVs then let's come up with one that is. I am sorry, but the public's imagination will not be captured by this existing event. Image      
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Post by Clay »

Amen brother...

Trust me, had you been a fly on the wall in the committee meetings when I was on the committee, you'd understand diplomacy is not my strong suit either. The idea would be to lift all restrictions on cost, improve the safety rules, allow for whatever technology you want, still impose an overall capacity limit and race on proper tracks - kart venues etc.

As Stu mentioned, there is a group putting together a national category which covers all this, which is being established in conjunction with CAMS' Alternative Energy Council. It would be worth getting you on board (and by extension anyone else who reads this). Let me know your email address and I'll give you more info.
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Post by acmotor »

Clay,
You can email to me at info@aeva.asn.au
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Post by Clay »

Having had another read through the 'New Generation Batteries' section of the ev challenge website (http://evchallenge.swantafe.edu.au) there is a sentence there which has me very concerned about what the committee driving the event really wants the event to achieve. It says, and I quote:

"Overall the eV Commitee feels that the number of laps completed in the hour by lead vehicles should remain around (or under) 60 on current coarse."

Now, apart from the spelling mistakes, the committee is basically saying that regardless of advances in technology, better application of this technology in the cars, better teamwork and better driving, the committee don't want improvements in either laptimes nor distances traveled from the set battery capacity.

I question the relevance of an eV racing event which tries to stifle improvements in performance. If you were going to race, year in, year out (which I have done since 2001) why try if the committee are telling you we don't want overall race distances to improve?

Is this where people want grassroots electric vehicle development going?...

I understand that I have an agenda for setting up a better national competition, but it is silly decisions such as this that just make me shake my head. The event is a brilliant groundbreaking event to get young people interested in and involved with electric vehicles. It improves the image of these vehicles amongst generally skeptical young people, who by the end of their involvement in the racing of these cars have a very positive view of electric cars.

But why must people screw with things by making such stupid decisions?
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Swan TAFE eV Challenge 2007

Post by stuartri »

Clay as discussed I am not sure if this is what was mean't as my interpretation was somewhat different.

The actual question we should all be asking is

1. What theoretical/practical number of laps could be achieved on a fixed battery capacity and how does this compare to our 59 laps last year. Are we close to the practical limit or not?

2. What imporvements can be made to cars to reduce losses that will result in the maximum available watts to the wheels. Remember there are plenty of areas in the car where losses occur. This will help better understand what the max laps will be. This will then determine if teams can achieve more laps completed.

So our group are working to model our cars performance relative to the components as well as the track to determine how far we were actually off the practical best that can be achieved on a fixed battery capacity.

Our model will be very rough until we compete this year and get better logging data.

From my viewpoint the comment made is meaningless without a valid context to apply the statement to. Hence for me the real question is if a car does more than 60 laps will it be disqualified or is it the feeling that for the fixed battery capacity we are almost hitting the practical limit? I guess this is what motor racing in any form is about designing to the event and optimising until some practical limit is met.

Thanks Stuart

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