Newbie advice needed

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Magneto
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Post by Magneto » Thu, 06 Nov 2008, 15:09

I have just about prepared a 1986 Corolla Seca Hatchback so that I can convert ir to an electric car.

I've got the motor out, exhaust and fuel tank off and stripped it of unecesary parts, such as the fuel lines in order to reduce weight.

The car is a manual front wheel drive and naturally the clutch and gearbox remain.

I'll soon be ready to fit a electric motor and all the other components needed.

Any advice regarding what motor, batteries and components to fit would be appreciated. Where can I source these components at a reasonable price? I'm prepared to buy over the internet if this is the most cost effective way to go.

Also any advice regarding engineering services where I can source the coupling device between the motor and gearbox and other mounting components would also be appreciated.

I reside in the Perth area.

I'm not trying to build some performance type car, but something which idealy which is capable of doing 100 KMs/h (so I can drive it on the freeway) and has a range of 70 kms. I hope that I'm not dreaming.

Thanks for any advice.

Magneto Man

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Post by evkartalex » Thu, 06 Nov 2008, 21:44

good ideas here.

talk to daniel at the EV shop. he has fabricated several cars, can probably help you out with parts and a motor. (www.evshop.com.au)

probably need to use Lithium batteries to get the range.

is 80-85km/h ok? as this would reduce battery consumption and wind
resistance would be less too

alex
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Magneto
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Post by Magneto » Thu, 06 Nov 2008, 22:50

Alex

Thanks for the reply and advice.

Top speed of 80-85 Km/h would be fine. I thought it might be wishful thinknig to expect 100km/h.

I'll just have to stay in the left lane if I venture onto the freeway.

I'll contact Daniel at the EV Shop and see what I can arrange.
Magneto Man

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Fri, 07 Nov 2008, 03:09

ZEVA for the parts you need.

Probably need 11-12kWh of usable battery capacity.

Maybe 144V system with 90Ah lithium batteries. (45 cells)
That should get you upto 100kph and around 70km range.

Yellow top Lead acid don't know capacity reqd.

Lead acid will be cheaper up front but you may have to rip the back seat out to fit.
The lithium will be more expensive up front but should be able to keep the back seat.

Mmmm for the motor you need to measure the distance between the end of the bellhousing and the opposite side of the engine bay.
This distance will determine the motor length ie the size.
Typically would be around an Impulse 9" from ZEVA or similar ADC motor.

Don't forget The Perth AEVA meeting is in a couple of weeks.

EDIT: Fix hyperlink
Last edited by Richo on Thu, 06 Nov 2008, 16:11, edited 1 time in total.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Magneto
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Post by Magneto » Fri, 07 Nov 2008, 21:18

Thanks Richo

I believe that Lithium batteries have about double the life of lead acid batteries. Is this true?

Magneto
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woody
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Post by woody » Fri, 07 Nov 2008, 21:33

Magneto wrote: I believe that Lithium batteries have about double the life of lead acid batteries. Is this true?
Thunder-sky Lithium advise 1500 cycles to 70% Depth of Discharge ~ 1050 cycles equivalent.
Greensaver Lead-Acid advise 800 cycles to 50% Depth of Discharge ~ 400 cycles.

So if:
(1) Manufacturers are honest or conservative
(2) You look after your cells (hint: use a good BMS and don't discharge beyond recommendations)
(3) You use up your cycles in a couple of years

Thunder-Sky looks to last 2.5 longer than same capacity Greensaver.

It is also about half the weight and double the cost.

(1), (2), and (3) are all unknowns :-)

cheers,
Woody
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Fri, 07 Nov 2008, 21:43

Lithiums will work out cheaper in the long run.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by Goombi » Mon, 10 Nov 2008, 16:55


Hello Magneto,

This is going to be your most important document for registering your Seca and it will quide you to sucessfull completion.

uploads/437/NCOP14_Guidelines_Electric_ ... b20061.pdf[
Last edited by Goombi on Mon, 10 Nov 2008, 06:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Goombi » Mon, 10 Nov 2008, 17:00

[quote="Goombi"] uploads/437/NCOP14_Guidelines_Electric_ ... b20061.pdf[uploads/437/QT_First_Application.pdf


This second PDF is a progressive installation of a successfull converter
this will show you clearly what is involved and what is required. This docment was prepared by Shawn Williams see his home page. I have learned a lot from his page http://evalbum.com/566

Cheers Eugen
Last edited by Goombi on Mon, 10 Nov 2008, 06:20, edited 1 time in total.

Magneto
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Post by Magneto » Mon, 10 Nov 2008, 17:30

Goombi

Thanks again.

I'm learning so fast my head is spinning.
Magneto Man

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Tue, 11 Nov 2008, 00:52

Oh you don't really need to keep the clutch.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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woody
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Post by woody » Tue, 11 Nov 2008, 02:25

BEV sell the motor + controller you have and also Lithium Batteries + Management, so they should be well placed to advise you on the batteries you need and how best to connect them up.

No-one from the Northern Territory has added their EV to EV Album :-(

The guys who run the motor museum thing just out of darwin might be interested in helping you or know who does custom stuff...

cheers,
Woody
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

Magneto
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Post by Magneto » Tue, 11 Nov 2008, 04:42

Richo

All the plans I have read so far, require the electric motor to be coupled to the gearbox via thew clutch.

How is it configured without a clutch? How does changing gears work and are there any examples on the web?

regards

Brad
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Tue, 11 Nov 2008, 06:14

The gearbox input shaft is directly coupled to the motor shaft.
You need the clutch on a petrol engine as there are a lot of moving parts that have heavy counter weights.
An electric motor has a small light rotor in the middle that does not have much mass to spin down.
Changing gears is the same except you don't use the clutch.
Accelerator off - pretend clutch in - change gears.
http://www.evalbum.com/1544
Watch the you tube vidoe's as well.

You can leave the clutch in
although if you just drive around in 3rd you'll never use it!
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Magneto
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Post by Magneto » Tue, 11 Nov 2008, 13:49

Richo

Thanks again.

I'll leave the clutch out. It will save a lot of weight.

Regards

Brad

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Magneto
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Post by Magneto » Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 03:55

Forgot to ask, but home much protection from water does the electric motors need in the engine bay?
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 05:01

4 part answer.... for DC brushed emotor.

In general.
Water (rain water alone, i.e. not very electrically conductive) is not a major problem short term, however in 6 or 12 months time the effects may come back to haunt you. Insulation, bearing or commutator failures are quite likely.

1) mechanical issue
Water causes rust (internal and external) to the steel parts of an emotor. If it enters bearings (quite likely, even with ring seal types),
it will cause premature bearing failure.

2) thermal issue
Sealing an emotor that was designed to be open for cooling will likely cause it to overheat.
Shock cooling of a hot motor can cause cracking or stress issues with the body and windings.

3) brush dust isssue
Sealing an emotor traps the brush/commutator dust inside. This dust is conductive and can cause insulation failures and reduced cooling efficiency.

4) electrical insulation issue
Water, particulary mixed with brush/commutator dust can cause insulation leakage and electrolytic corrosion possibly leading to total emotor failure.


In most cases here, extreme conditions have been consdidered.

In practice there is a degree of water tollerance as the motor is warm and armature spinning so water is thrown off / evaporates.

In summary, protection from water should actually be total, for the inside (including bearings) of an emotor.
In practice this is not possible, so reduce direct water ingress where possible.

Forced cooling air from a dry location, blowing past the windings and exiting near the brushes is the best way to protect the emotor from water and remove brush/commutator dust.

Note. EVs often have isolated (floating) battery packs in the belief that that is the safe arrangement. This falls down when the motor is wet !
Perhaps a measure of safe wetness of an emotor is that if the insulation fails enough for 20mA of current to flow at voltages >72V then there is a problem that must be delt with ! (from a human safety point of view at least)

BTW, brushless DC and AC motors are typically totally enclosed, fan cooled, you can hose them down ! Image
Last edited by acmotor on Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 08:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Goombi
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Post by Goombi » Wed, 12 Nov 2008, 18:23

ACmotor, This is a interesting summary. I have entertained myself to cut a Poly bucket 1/2 way up the motor leaving about 3/4 inches of gap where the vent slots are all the way along the motor to protect the motor from splashes and dust and stones even over the exhaust fan slots. I will make a sample shortly and show you. Hmmm another experiment LOL

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Jeff Owen
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Post by Jeff Owen » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 18:52

Magneto
My car is at http://www.evalbum.com/385
This page is slightly outdated as I have changed to a 1231 controller and installed a battery monitor. Total distance travelled is now over 60,000 km.

The motor is totally unprotected and has, so far, had no problems in over 10 years.

I would suggest keeping the clutch. I have driven EVs with and without a clutch and have found that when you need to shift quickly, it is much easier with a clutch. It is also more natural when inexperienced people drive your car. The clutch also provides the spline to connect to the gearbox input shaft. By keeping the clutch, you just need to get a simple adaptor made to connect the motor shaft to the flywheel. As the flywheel is only there to carry the clutch, remove the ring gear and get the flywheel lightened as much as possible.

As far as getting the performance you want, 100kph is easy as long as you use at least 96V. The range is more difficult without exceeding the GVM of the car. My car is capable of 70km but I rarely do more than 50km on a charge to preserve battery life.

Li batteries will address the range/GVM issue but I have been unable to verify the claims being made that they are less expensive per km than Pb. I would appreciate if some of the people making these claims would point me at examples of real world EVs achieving this as I would like to consider using them to reduce the weight of my car. My battery costs are typically 6.5 - 8.5c/km.

If you choose to go with Pb, I would suggest you go with flooded golf cart batteries if you are building a car for daily use. They have greater range and a much lower costs than other types of battery. Getting a suitable voltage at a reasonable weight is the only issue.



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Post by Johny » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 20:13

Jeff. Have you changed the batteries in the time you have been driving?

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Post by woody » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 21:00

Jeff Owen wrote: Magneto
My car is at http://www.evalbum.com/385

Total distance travelled is now over 60,000 km.
Hi Jeff,

you've done a fair few clicks there :-)
Jeff Owen wrote: Li batteries will address the range/GVM issue but I have been unable to verify the claims being made that they are less expensive per km than Pb. I would appreciate if some of the people making these claims would point me at examples of real world EVs achieving this as I would like to consider using them to reduce the weight of my car. My battery costs are typically 6.5 - 8.5c/km.
I've done all my sums based on manufacturer's claims, hopefully real-world will be better, I'll find that out as I go.

My sums for the Thundersky (1500 cycles @ 70%, 100Wh/km) worked out at 4.5c/km at the pre-crash TS price of $1.40/Ah. Now I guess it's up to 50% more, so 7.5c/km.

What are the specs for the trojans (weight/DoD/Cycles/Price) and what are the real world figures? Have the trojans gone up in price since the crash too?

cheers,
Woody
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Jeff Owen
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Post by Jeff Owen » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 21:26

Johny
I get typically get 18,500 to 22,500 km per set of flooded batteries.

Woody
The specs for Trojans can be found on their website. The price varies depending on who you buy them from. The price I pay has changed very little over the last few years. These batteries are imported in huge numbers for the golf industry and this probably dampens the effects of currency fluctuations.

Most EVers, at some time, prematurely kill a set of batteries and this is harder to do and less traumatic with flooded batteries.

I hope you are correct about the Li batteries as it solves the GVM issue.

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Post by Magneto » Fri, 14 Nov 2008, 02:05

Jeff

Too late, I've already removed the clutch and peddle and all parts associated with it.

Glad to get rid of any unecessary weight especially the flywheel.
Last edited by Magneto on Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.
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