Ozgrown Electric 1/4 mile Doorslammer

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AMPrentice
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Ozgrown Electric 1/4 mile Doorslammer

Post by AMPrentice » Wed, 24 Sep 2008, 18:52

As an exercise for fun (pls be engineer like serious though with advice :)
Ive spent sometime using my auto nerdity choosing a potential WhiteZombiesque combination for a successful DoorSlammer.

The following is a shortlist from tons of vehicles considered.
Fiat 500 or Niki 550kg as raced by Rigoli in the past
Datsun 1000 625kg (lighter than WhiteZombie 1200 by at least 70kg)
83-85 Suzuki Hatch 550kg (4wd available therefore Rwd a sinch)

Please note: Had to be a sedan like car no sports cars like an unoffordable
640kg lotus elan or a VW buggy based which is limited in many racing classes.

After carefully considering the weights and availability,
the 1984 Suzuki hatch came trumps. Avail in FWD in Oz they still have
the provisions for RWD built in, eg tailshaft tunnel and rear leaf
spring type suspension. Suzuthiasts have converted to rwd using a suzuki
carry differential and all bolts up (but not strong enough for racing).


So this thread is about making a Suzuki Hatch
into an Electric E 1/4 mile beast.


So lets start from the diff and work our way forward...

An all-alloy quickchange rear end to handle the abuse and stay lightweight.
26-30kg using nissan pintara rear disc brakes $3000AUD

Rear tramp bars for better traction under acceleration
$300AUD

Change front disc brake assembly to Nissan Bluebird S3 setup using bigger discs and calipers. Easily sourced from wreckers #300AUD

Custom balanced short tailshaft $300 AUD

Now the gritty bit

Option 1. Direct Driven 11 inch Ge motors 1000USD each from forklift suppliers modified by someone for high voltage. eg 208 volts
83% efficiency at motor and 90% efficient controller 200-250 hp possible - controller choice unknown.

Option 2. Siamesed 9 inch motors at 192-208volts - controller unknown

Other options?
Remember the Direct driven motors setups are based after learning what Master Wayland has tried (just bigger combo Siamese -
more lamination area more potential)

batteries options??

eg. 16 x 12V = batteries that can deliver 1200amp discharges safely for 15 seconds?. Optima Blue Tops? others?

Weights
Suzuki hatch total weight with ICE gear 550kg
Motor and complete tranny 95kg.
Gas tank, radiator, fluids, exhaust 25kg
550-120kg= 430kg.
add 30kg alloy Winters quickchange 30kg
add tailshaft 5kg
add 11inch motor 80kg
add controller (eg Zilla no longer avail.) 15kg
add misc 30kg
add batteries ? (eg 16 x 12v bluetop optimas 288kg)
total around 880kg or 1930lbs

The thing that must not change is the vehicle although short wheelbase a mistupidshi ICE 2.6 astron turbo powered version has run into the 9s
(thats one of the heaviest 4 cylinders around more like a 6 cylinder in weight)

The rear hatch is very heavy for this kind of car so around 15kgs
could be saved there by replacing with lighweight FRP version in no way
sacrificing structural integrity of chassis. This is to save weight when
a rollcage will need fitting in the low 11s.
Other weight savings could be made where removing rear seat and stripping the interior from heater and other bits so another 20-25kg is possible.
Last edited by AMPrentice on Wed, 24 Sep 2008, 09:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Ozgrown Electric 1/4 mile Doorslammer

Post by zeva » Wed, 24 Sep 2008, 19:32

In general I think Wayland has made pretty wise choices.. i.e dual 8/9" motors with series/parallel switching with a high voltage battery pack (340V?) for good performance with motors in series. You will need a Zilla2K to be competitive, nothing else comes close in power terms! Hopefully won't be long before CafeElectric secures a manufacturing licensee.

The Hawkey Odysseys in WZ are probably much more powerful than Optimas, though they're both still lead acid. High end lithiums will give much better performance with less weight of course, as demonstrated when Zombie borrowed the lithium pack from KillaCycle for a few runs earlier this year. A123Systems are still king, though the K2 26650P cells weren't too far off in my testing (and are much cheaper).
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Post by woody » Wed, 24 Sep 2008, 23:22

Have to have an AC option:

Option 3: ABB M3AP 250 SMC 95kW Aluminium Motor wound for 400V @ 100Hz, 386 kg + ABB ACS-800-U2-0610-5 600Hp AC drive, 240kg. Should be good for 1850Nm from 0-2500rpm =~ 500kW.

Batteries would need to deliver 700 Amps @ 700 Volts.
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

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Post by zeva » Wed, 24 Sep 2008, 23:39

woody wrote:Option 3: ABB M3AP 250 SMC 95kW Aluminium Motor wound for 400V @ 100Hz, 386 kg + ABB ACS-800-U2-0610-5 600Hp AC drive, 240kg. Should be good for 1850Nm from 0-2500rpm =~ 500kW.


626kg total for motor and controller!?! *cough, splutter* you AC guys are mad Image
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Post by Richo » Thu, 25 Sep 2008, 01:15

Brusa ASM 8-24-10
Stackable pancake motor.
2 of those gives 1060Nm at 136kg.
6000RPM 370A RMS max 400V DC
125 cells 3.2V 100Ah 5C cont 10C peak.

As for price way too much Image
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Post by AMPrentice » Thu, 25 Sep 2008, 05:46

zeva wrote: The Hawkey Odysseys in WZ are probably much more powerful than Optimas, though they're both still lead acid. High end lithiums will give much better performance with less weight of course, as demonstrated when Zombie borrowed the lithium pack from KillaCycle for a few runs earlier this year.


Though .5 a second better is far from better value when you compare the costs
zeva wrote: A123Systems are still king, though the K2 26650P cells weren't too far off in my testing (and are much cheaper).

I hope one day they are available in little 100ah bricky thingys Image

If Firefly can get their V2 battery finished with both their positive and negative plates in carbon to be more than a glorified SLA, things could look up for EVrs.
Also speaking to some battery sales people enthusiastic about EVs there is apparently some kind of carbon based battery thats been presented by some big company to many battery manufacturers recently its very hush hush but its supposedly in the works. Anyone heard of this mystery?

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Post by mattW » Fri, 26 Sep 2008, 01:29

This would be a really good way to promote AEVA across Australia if we could wipe the floor with the ICE guys at drags strips around the country. I'm not sure how many Aussie AEVA members there are but if there are enough willing people I'm sure we could pool together some cash (% of membership fees + donations?) to get something like that going. Then the individual chapters can just pay for the transport to their state to do a few drag runs and then a big open day promotion thing. I'm sure we could get sponsorship for some of the components as well if we got enough exposure. The free media would be worth the expense in my book.

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Post by Striker » Fri, 26 Sep 2008, 01:47

I would personally go DC siamese 9" motors (Siamese 11inch anyone?).

The benefits are being able to switch between torque mode, and power mode, in exactly the same way that White Zombie does.

Electric motors that don't do this, just can't achieve the top speed required to be a quick drag vehicle.

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Post by Lowndsy » Fri, 26 Sep 2008, 05:46

very specific with the nissan choices of gear.. i assume you're familiar with it?

remember white zombie is smashing 9' ford diffs open so you may need to look past nissan there, especially if youre looking at 1000Nm+. As for brakes, go ac and get some motor braking happening! then your nissan items MAY do the job. get some slotted/vented rotors if you can though, i had a silvia and if i pulled that thing from 200km/h, by the time it was at 100km/h the brakes had practically faded (280mm vented hauling 1.3T)

also keep in mind that light cars are light because they are made from recycled newspaper... theyre not designed to handle power beyond that of a hair dryer and as such do twist on big launches. Door slammers run custom tube chassis with no reinforcement from the body (all cage, shell clips on. since the cars you're looking at largely have monocoque structure, you will need quite a comprehensive cage to nicely lock it up

your 70kg saving may be used up in extra reo. have a look at the different cages used in drag cars to get an idea.

my last observation, if you are serious about breaking records, forget the leaf spring idea. Axle tramping may only shave a few splits, but on a strip it adds up and really effects your launch. id say do a custom 4 link and have a look at 4x4 forums for cheap and easy ideas of how to go about this.

finally, if youre doing this all on a tight budget, walk away now. any form of competitive motorsport will entail everything going wrong, breaking, and if youre lucky, setting on fire. ultimately it is all extra un forseen costs you will wear.

personally the datsun would be my choice as there are already ppl dragging them and on a project like this you would want as much support as you can find

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Post by AMPrentice » Sat, 27 Sep 2008, 03:49

I think you missed the Winters Quickchange rear end in the recipe
Would never use a diff made for 110hp.

A cage will be mandatory and leafs and traction bars give no issues to Wzombie.

4SUMFUN 9.01 seconds
almost into the 8s with an engine heavier than a holden 6.
Image
Image
4sumfun used a custom chassis setup but there are plenty of v6 and other conversion done on these critters with upgraded brakes and diff only.
The suzuki hatch is a better unique choice than just replicating WZ.
Last edited by AMPrentice on Sat, 27 Sep 2008, 06:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Thalass » Sat, 27 Sep 2008, 19:41

This is a great idea! And if the AEVA can afford it, then putting a small percentage of member fees towards it would work, as a sponsorship deal of sorts along with other EV-related companies.

I'd like to see an EV going down the strip at Kwinana!
I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.

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Post by Lowndsy » Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 06:44

door slammers and street cars are very different machines. streeters do the best they can within strict regulations, where as slammers are all out power machines designed to shift in a line and nothing else.

zombie is a quick car, but ultimately it is a street car, and there are still streeters out there running much faster times. if you want to build something that will get noticed, look at zombie and others out there and pay special attention to the flaws. zombie hasnt had any "problems" with the leaves, but big drag builds dont use them with good reason.

4sumfun is a great example of this. sure its a fun little machine but the builder has noticed that it needs a tube chassis to do what they want. other than a few clip on pannels, there is not much in that car that came with it from factory.

the biggest concern in a build of this kind is the extreme torque that gets put down in a split second. remember that 90hp electric motors are smashing gearboxes and stripping clutches that can take a beating from over twice that from an ICE engine. torque is the main thing that causes chassis twist and axle tramping. 11sec ICE cars dont need 9inch diffs and fully reinforced cages, yet zombie has it. a true electric slammer is gonna need a bit more than nissan discs and a hilux tail IMO

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Post by AMPrentice » Wed, 01 Oct 2008, 02:49

When a Vic roads engineer measured chassis flex of my friends standard datsun 1200 coupe with an L16 and another customers suzi hatch with GM V6 and both with similar BW rear ends, the datsun had more flex. The engineer said it was due to the Suzi having a narrower body and slightly shorter wheelbase.

Also you seriously dont understand that a quickchange is far from a hilux tail.

Lastly have you noticed WZombies braking system? far from what I propose. Image
Last edited by AMPrentice on Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lowndsy » Thu, 02 Oct 2008, 21:48

sorry point taken on the quickchange, must have missed that in your original post, just saw the note under 4sumfun.

end of the day all you can do is give it a go a see what happens.

how do they measure chassis flex?

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Post by AMPrentice » Fri, 03 Oct 2008, 02:30

Lowndsy wrote: how do they measure chassis flex?
The one I witnessed was like a 4 wheel alignment machine with jacks.

Im glad you where quicker on the quick change this time Image

Ill be looking tossing around at either a well made 8 point roll-cage or 3/4 chassis for the lil suzi and then the quick-change rear end when funds come in.

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Post by Lowndsy » Fri, 03 Oct 2008, 02:58

id be doing the 3/4 for sure, take things as extreme as you can for two reasons;

1 - helps proove your point and increases chances at faster times. a better engineered base reflects better on the project as a whole

2 - odds are youl only want to further develop it once the project is complete. the only people who finish a project and can say it is "done" are restorers of concourse classics. other than that, a car can always be built further. like you've just said youself, do it properly and do the next step when funds come in Image

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Post by EV2Go » Tue, 07 Oct 2008, 20:53

With regards to the White Zombie breaking the 9”gear set… that needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Having worked for a company for 5 years that manufactured 9” diff housing as a business, there is a lot to that story that wasn’t told.
Firstly there are 9” gear sets and there are 9” gear sets, obviously the first set of gears they had in there were either some worn out factory gears that have done a million miles and were fatigued or some no name who flung dung brand that a stock Datto could break.

In the Top Door Slammer (as in the real drag racing class, not generically calling it that) that the company I used to work for owned and raced it was running a Strange 9” rear end and it was making close to 2000HP and it never broke a gear set.

In any low end 9” diff conversion (as in modified 9” housing and shortened axles), the first thing that will break is the axles. Most standard 28 spline 9”axles are actually weaker than a 10 bolt Salisbury Holden axle.

So the fact that it broke the gear set first indicates that the gear set was little better than the factory diff (ok well maybe slightly better) but an electric motor (or 2) won’t break a decent 9” setup any time soon.

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Post by AMPrentice » Sat, 11 Oct 2008, 14:59

Most 9 inchers get abused its a fact of life, it could have been a number of things and int that case I thought the gearset was lame and the axles where good.
Anyway Strange, Hallibrand or Winters are made for abuse.
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