changing habits and expectations

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acmotor
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changing habits and expectations

Post by acmotor »

There may need to be a shift in peoples' expectations for us to be able to embrace the new world of electric vehicles.
There are the big pictures of the change in the world's economy, the politics and the power base. You are welcome to discuss these, however this post is aimed at the the more technical and user details of EVs.
Having done an EV conversion and driven it around, it is interesting how your thinking changes about how you drive. Let me elaborate in this....

A first observation is that the cost of motoring is not going to be lower.
The cost of fuel will be gone but replaced by the cost of electricity. This is certain to rise as the world moves to cleaner sources of energy.
The cost of batteries (but let me call it energy storage unit) will be high and have to be amortised over their useful life.
Driving with one eye on the ammeter changes the link between the foot and the pocket. It is far more effective than the fuel consumption meter on a IC car.
Performance of 0-100k in 5 seconds and the range of 400k are mutually exclusive as is the type of use and the life of the energy storage unit.
Energy consumuing accessories (air con etc) do need to be efficient as now you will know the power involved in being decadent.
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Last edited by acmotor on Thu, 29 Apr 2077, 23:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Goombi »

When i was suggesting to drive a basic EV--without air power steering power windows sound Box etc. I was almost crucified. The $6000 ev is a reality but has to be basic. Since my test i also find a different psychy in driving. If you don't have to travel 80km/h then drive 50. Don't run up the hill like a gazelle-- take your time there is downhill on the other side--you will save some battery power there.
After all EV is just another vehicle used for transportation. If you want Luxury-- stay with the petrol guzzlers. As ACMOTOR SAYS You will not get much saving. But the pleasure to think that OPEC and KEVIN is not getting my exise and gst from petrol makes it all worthwhile --SATISFIED EV CONVERTER       www.goombi.4t.com Image
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Post by Gow864 »

Indeed. we need to use less FULL STOP! all energy has to come from somewhere. I don't need a luxury living room on wheels driven by a V6 or V8, I don't live in my car, in fact i'll bet the majority of commuters spend less than 2 hours a day in their vehicle. Cars of the future need to be functional and efficient, and the consumer emphasis needs to shift from OTT Luxury and unusable performance.

Maybe taxing the CO2 output from a vehicle based on mileage could help this shift in emphasis.
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Post by sparau »

ah cmon surely you're forgeting the lexus hybrid 3 ton 4wd Image

re: cost of batteries and efficiency - in the long run dont you see the high performance lithiums coming down in price? eg. those 10c batteries listed in the battery forum - atm they are 5x the price of TS but given a couple of years TS will steal the technology and be making them.

re: power usage and price - again i think prices will drop - a lot of systems for making power arent really that expensive. Even storing it doesnt need to be that complex - inertia systems like a flywheel on mag bearings in a partial vacuum - you could pretty much build it in your backyard shed.
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Post by acmotor »

Agreed on those round lithiums, 5 x the price and actually heavier than TS per kWh. (good kW though). It will all move on.

ETS must include transport fuel - including electrons pushed around by coal. AEVA has made a submission to this end, however the fossil lobby will probably win.Image

I wondered why the prius was so much more efficient in the city.... obvious - stop signs and traffic lights. With regen and stopped motor it was winning over the fossil trucks. Take EV design seriously (i.e. don't built hybrids) and the future is bright.
Take traffic design seriously also and there are plenty of fuel consumption reductions to be made as well !!

The other point about 3 tonne hybrids ...... If you buy a lexus then it was not for economy anyway ! Still a nice vehicle but not green from a shear energy consumption point of view, even if it were pure electric. Image

Re flywheel in a vacuum - IMHO FWIW forget it. 20kWh of stored energy in a flywheel is a nightmare (try getting the power on and off the flywheel).
God gave us electricity so we didn't have to kid ourselves with compressed air and flywheels !
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Post by sparau »

acmotor wrote:The other point about 3 tonne hybrids ...... If you buy a lexus then it was not for economy anyway ! Still a nice vehicle but not green from a shear energy consumption point of view, even if it were pure electric. Image

Re flywheel in a vacuum - IMHO FWIW forget it. 20kWh of stored energy in a flywheel is a nightmare (try getting the power on and off the flywheel).
God gave us electricity so we didn't have to kid ourselves with compressed air and flywheels !


Lexus - strangely enough they are marketing them as a better enviro solution !! FFS - 3 tonne of smelting with a v6 and batteries, environmentally you would be better to just toss your v8 landy on gas...

re: flywheel - Cant you basically make a big electric motor ? Toss power in the electro magnets around the outside and spin up the flywheel to store, reverse and draw the power out. near zero wearing parts and a reasonably heavy flywheel (say 50-200kg) would spin quite slow to store energy.
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Post by zeva »

sparau wrote: re: flywheel - Cant you basically make a big electric motor ? Toss power in the electro magnets around the outside and spin up the flywheel to store, reverse and draw the power out. near zero wearing parts and a reasonably heavy flywheel (say 50-200kg) would spin quite slow to store energy.


I gave the whole flywheel thing a bit of curious thought a while back. I think you're on the money regarding adding/taking power to/from the flywheel, having it like a big induction motor - you'd love it Tuarn Image. But.. the masses and/or velocities needed to power a car for any significant range are really not feasible in a mobile application.

The flywheel would have to be in a gimble so gyroscopic effects are isolated from the vehicle, which limits it to maybe 1m diameter max due to space constraints in a vehicle.

Say we need 10kWh (36MJ) of energy for a useful range.. A battery pack this size weighs about 100kg, so let's go with that for equivalence. Using E = 1/2 mv^2, the rotational velocity works out at.. over 16000rpm! It would be enormously dangerous if the flywheel escaped.. (e.g in an accident)

However I do think flywheels may be a feasible stationary energy storage system, where space and mass isn't such a limiting factor.. If we work with 1 tonne rotating at 2m radius, it's got 10kWh in it by ~1280rpm. So you could have your rooftop solar panels spinning up the flywheel during the day, then charge your EV from the energy overnight.

I'm sure there are loads of technical problems with it I don't realise.. but it's still an interesting idea Image
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Post by sparau »

yeah - i wondered about it for mobile applications and came to the same conclusion as you - too dangerous.

Even having lots of little ones where it would be easier to hold them together (mechanical strength of the spindle compared to weight) in case of an accident would be tricky.

If in case of failure you could get them to lose their power via friction rather than disintegrating like little bombs then perhaps they could be possible.

re: gyroscopic effect - rather than sesparate them via a gimble would this in fact be handy? I mean forget torsion bars or hydraulic self leveling suspension - just make sure your suspension has enough exponential rate springs to take the bumps and the body would just glide straight and true over the top ! Motorcycles would be rather difficult to turn with this configuration but you wouldn't need a sidestand Image
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Post by woody »

acmotor wrote: A first observation is that the cost of motoring is not going to be lower.
I think you'll be ahead when your 220 LFP40AHAs are dead:

1500 cycles @ 70 % DoD x 200 x 40 x 3.2 = 30MWh*
30MWh @ 200Wh/km = 150,000 km
Electricity: 30,000 kWh @ 10c/kWh off-peak green = $3,000
Batteries: $15,000 ?
Equivalent Petrol: @ 10L/100km @ $1.40 = $21,000

So you're about $3,000 ahead, ignoring ICE-related servicing and AC-related servicing.

This assumes you do that 150,000 before the batteries go off...

cheers,
Woody

*30MWh is generated by a big power station (e.g. Eraring 4 * 660 MW) in about 41 seconds.
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Post by bga »

acmotor wrote:Re flywheel in a vacuum - IMHO FWIW forget it. 20kWh of stored energy in a flywheel is a nightmare (try getting the power on and off the flywheel).
God gave us electricity so we didn't have to kid ourselves with compressed air and flywheels !
A flywheel system was (sort-of) demonstrated in the Chrysler Patriot race car in 1993.

From Wikipedia:
The Chrysler Patriot was a turbine-powered hybrid sports-prototype
racing car built by Chrysler in 1995 as a concept car.
The traction engine was a four-pole, three-phase,
525-volt AC induction motor, weighing 143 pounds (65 kg),
with a maximum speed of 24,000 rpm; it had an aluminum housing, was lubricated by oil, and had an 8:1 motor to final drive ratio. It included flywheel energy storage.

It was less than a stellar success.

the page : http://www.allpar.com/model/patriot.html
has more info.

It's intersting to note that some limited hybrid technologies using electical and well as mechanical (flywheel) systems may be used in formula 1 racing in the coming year.

BGA


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Post by acmotor »

Yo Woody,
But you have to factor in the change in revenue base as people convert to electric.
Grid power prices will rise and a NZ style road tax for EVs will be introduced.
Also, if too many people have solar then PG will put a tax on sunlight like the water bore tax !

The only win is now before everyone gets on the bandwaggon.
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Post by Gow864 »

Changing habits and expectations? What? within the framework of maximum comfort for me?

Why do you expect to have a car? (especially not some green one, without air-con 6 stacker CD and other associated BS) 6.8 billion people? can we all expect to have a car? really? How? please explain!

And BTW is it really worth building an EV capable of only 50km carrying 300kg of lead? i mean really if you only need 50km per day, then why not walk to the bus stop or train station that will surely be more environmentally friendly (if that is your motive after all).

What is it something like 80,000 new cars hit the road last month! Can you imagine trying to provide the power for so many cars in a coal only burning country!!!!

Here's my future view:
no-one in a city has a car! Why? Well you already live on the internet, everything can be delivered, and during your journey to work you can immerse yourself in your iPod.
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Post by Ladislav »

Hi Woody;

Your calculation is ok with today values but there is posibility that petrol may be $ 5 per liter in five years,then conversion will be more of value,
what you think?
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Post by acmotor »

Far reaching there Gow864.

OK as long as the busses are electric and go where you want to go without 10 changes of bus / train and run often enough and cater for luggage and shopping and wheel chairs and elderly and prams and are safe and secure for passengers and don't have sweat and food seat covers ('public vinyl') and don't stop at midnight and don't run empty and don't go on strike.

You are right though, there is a place for good public transport, I've just not seen any yet. I left Sydney, after being stuck in a traffic jam on the Harbour Bridge one Friday in 38degC heat at the back of a double decker bus. Noisy, smelly jammed full of people packed in like sardines. If that is public transport then give me my car any day.Image

I've lived in Perth, Sydney and Melbourne and worked in London and Tokyo. Public transport is best when it is the logical option given the congestion or when you live well out of the city.

IMHO, the question we should ask is why do you live in say Mandurah and work in Perth (or live in Lithgow and work in Sydney). Isn't that a waste of transport energy and time by any method of transport ?
Consider how far you are travelling, as well as how you travel.

Perth tried to eliminate cars from the city 20 years ago. The city died and big shopping centres grew up in the suburbs (with plenty of car parking). Someone opened their eyes and now there is lots of free parking for shoppers in the city and life has returned.
Sure, public transport shifts plenty of people (on Perth's electric trains, with regen braking on the Mandurah line).

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Post by Gow864 »

I think it's like 3 million people per day travel in and out of London city on electric trains, have been for god knows how many years.

I do know I spent 5 years living in perth, managed to do it on a push bike (Vic Park to George street). oh yeah and taxis... lots of taxis.

The whole system needs to change. we need to stop designing our cities/Large suburbs around the car. What happened to the high street, you know the one you could walk to? Do your shopping and actually talk to people from where you live. That's right Westfield centralised them! and the car made that happen. Ev's won't fix that.

there's no easy cure. the public are going to be hard pressed to make it happen by just converting cars to electric. It needs a shift in town planning and (mainly public) transport infrastructure.

In short i guess that eventually like it or not sacrificies will have to be made.

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Post by acmotor »

Yes to all that.

Perhaps if EVs do retain their limited range it will be a good thing !
When fossil fuel runs out and the sky turns red, perhaps we won't drive as far ! Image

I don't pretend EVs are the solution to transport congestion but I would bet that a bunch of zero emission, low energy consuming EVs travelling point to point would still beat a diesel bus in many ways.
Including comfort, convenience, time, energy, CO2 emission and security.
Electric busses would at least address some of that.

We haven't even pointed the finger at jet travel yet !!! Image
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Hi Team,

I just wanted to put my CHF0.02 into this. It will be a bit of a hurried rant before I get on a plane.

To give some background, I am just finishing a trip, mostly for work around the world. Auckland - NZ, Las Vegas - NV, Austin - TX to the maker faire http://makerfaire.com :) where I met some AustinEV converters (Ian you are famous), Clifton - NJ, Warsaw - Poland and finally Basel - Switzerland where the Hilton has a factory Citron EV about 10 years old. OK, don't accuse me of bragging. I will try and make some useful points.

In seeing these places with reference to sustainability I have to say that the Swiss have done it right. They have made the correct decisions with regard to travel and infrastructure.

The continuing growth of the major Australian cities and seeing the US cities, the model of continuing building the car infrastructure is simply unsustainable.

In Basel, Switzerland there is an electric tram system, and a bus system that extends beyond the CBD. Hardly anyone needs a car in the city.

They rely as GOW... mentions on the corner dairy / convenience store for food, and tend to work local. Even the major supermarkets (Coop) have smaller community shops (like 4 square). The smaller villages are all connected by rail and bus. The bus to the airport leaves every 6 mins! OK there is a rush hour on the motorways but the public transport is light years ahead

The current excise tax that only increases as fuel prices increase needs to be put into public transport infrastructure, not new roads.

I am probably stating the obvious buy I firmly believe that Australia and the US have been living well beyond our means, if not as individuals, as a nation. Credit crisis anyone.

The money the government borrows has to be paid back with interest sometime. Is the money borrowed being used to make back as much as the interest paid?

As a nation we can not afford nice smooth wide roads. The US is a testament to this. The I280 that I travelled on is full of holes about 300mm diameter and up to what seems like 80mm deep. It is absolutely dangerous to drive at 55MPH at night!

The solution IMHO. Make some hard decisions on putting money into public transport and away from expanding roads. Promote EVs and an alternative to ICE to reduce reliance on imported fuel.

Incidental I did the math on CO2 emissions for my ute. Using an old inefficient coal power station in NSW as the benchmark, the CO2 output of the power station is about the came as the equivalent ICE. Modern power stations would output about 20% less than the equivalent ICE. The output of one power station is also easier to scrub than many ICE vehicles. The point of output is also away from the city. This point was reinforced to me in Warsaw. I would have had a wonderful view of the city from the 47th floor if it weren't for the smog. It seems that many of the up and coming cities of the world are making the same mistakes we have made. I heard that the subway in Warsaw took 27 years to complete.

Anyway you are all lucky I need sign off now. :)

Regards, Mal
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

O Oh, I might have just pushed Tuarn over the line and a comment on Jet travel might be on its way...

Something I meant to add was that the new taxies in Switzerland were smaller than a corolla. Not much comfort for some of the large Europeans driving them with their knees around their ears!
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Post by acmotor »

Go for it Mal, I always get a laugh when people try to defend the indefensible ! Image

Good observations on planning.
Public transport is not the real issue. Peoples expectations of how far to travel are !
Simple - what is the first question people ask about an EV ? how far will it go (and then how fast).

The CO2 issue from coal fired power stations to power EVs is a bit old hat though. We all know that there are re-newable energy options despite the likes of PG.
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Post by Johny »

At the Melbourne AEVA meeting where the guy from the Victorian Govt Human Resources dept. spoke, he made no bones about the fact that any prospective EV (for them to purchase for District Nurse use etc.) would have to have ALL the same features as a regular ICE car. Range was not such a big issue but creature comfort was.
The expectations are set I'm afraid.
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Post by Goombi »

Fly wheels? Hmm Adelaide Council is still looking for one from their Trolleybus Image

Latest report from Angas Stree depot----they are also still looking for the TROLLEYBUS..
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Post by drowe67 »

Gow864 wrote: can we all expect to have a car? really? How? please explain!


No.
Gow864 wrote: And BTW is it really worth building an EV capable of only 50km carrying 300kg of lead?
Yes. Totally. This is precisely what I drive every day and it's very useful to my family and I. Even in the two seat configuration that the lead acid weight mandates. My EV runs on less power than I generate from my PV home array. The total cost of PV + EV is roughly a medium size new car, or a few years depreciation on a large family car.

Much smarter than carting around 1600kg of Ford Falcon burning fuel that took 80 million years to form and costs wars and many lives to sustain.

Cheers,

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Post by drowe67 »

Johny wrote: At the Melbourne AEVA meeting where the guy from the Victorian Govt Human Resources dept. spoke, he made no bones about the fact that any prospective EV (for them to purchase for District Nurse use etc.) would have to have ALL the same features as a regular ICE car. Range was not such a big issue but creature comfort was.
The expectations are set I'm afraid.


This helps us flush out a couple of implicit assumptions:

1/ EVs must be directly comparable to the capabilities of ICE vehicles, e.g. range/power/comforts.

I think of it more like the transition to ICE cars 80 years ago. The vehicles that cars replaced (steam trains and horses) were not directly comparable.

So perhaps a direct comparison between a technology that "cheats" by using non-renewable, energy dense fossil fuel is not justified. I assume EVs can be powered by renewables, and ignore biofuels here. My main problem is with fossil-fueled transport.

Here is another example: Eighty years ago petrol stations were not wide spread but a horse could be fed in any paddock. Horse-drawn technology was wide spread and well understood. What were people saying then about the smelly, unsafe and unreliable petrol cars of the day?

2/ The gentleman from the Vic Gov has a choice between ICE and EV. Maybe he does today, not sure about his kids.....

3/ Price is a funny one. People seem to accept paying $30k for a new ICE car that depreciates at 25% and costs perhaps $5k per year to fuel and maintain. But they think a $15k EV conversion of an older car is expensive and unwarranted.

Cheers,

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Post by Thalass »

Oh hay! I need jet transport to keep my job! haha.

Electric aircraft are possible, but suffer the same problem as electric cars: range.

Like most awesome 21st century possibilities, the power supply is holding it back. What we need is MrFusion! That way we'd solve the rubbish problem as well as the EV power source problem! haha.


So yeah, electric aircraft will need something like fusion power to be small enough, efficient enough (and safe enough) to fit in the aircraft. I think we had this discussion a while ago. A 2-seat powered glider could possibly work on electric power, but an airliner hasn't got a chance. The batteries would probably go flat just taxiing to the runway. heh.
I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.
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Post by acmotor »

Agreed,
I think the record is 90km flight in an electric fixed wing aircraft late last year in France. (probably on this forum somewhere)
A full on airliner is coming but not this week.Image

I would note that a 747/400 takes off with 150 tonne of fuel on board. Over half the weight of the aircraft ! That weight, if LiPo, would have no trouble getting it in the air and cruising but just how far would it go ? A 20 minute flight maybe ? Just a scaled up electric model aircraft really.

Fusion as a power source ? probably still further off than a 10 x increase in battery capacity. Image
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