$6000 EV

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drowe67
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$6000 EV

Post by drowe67 » Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 18:16

A big problems with EV conversions is cost. I can't help thinking that if we can get the cost of a basic EV down to say $6k then we might see a big rise in adoption of EVs. It then becomes maybe 2 years fuel costs and looks good for an average commuter, plus many people would buy just for the green angle.

At the moment your choices are a $15-20k conversion of an older car or a $40k modern car (like a Getz) professional conversion. So you have to be pretty keen on EVs and cashed up.

So is a $6k EV possible in Australia? I thought I would start this thread to get some ideas on how to dramatically lower EV conversion costs.

Here are a couple of my ideas:

1/ Have a spec of 40km @ 80% DoD, mainly 60km/hr driving. I am trying to set the spec low to allow for 72V systems. This also reflects my Adelaide bias, I guess the rest of AU living in larger cities with urban freeways might see this as unworkable. Feel free to debate this spec - the idea is to capture as much "low hanging fruit" of the ICE market with the lowest price EV. I feel that EVs can stand on their own today for many common missions we currently use ICE vehicles for.

2/ Volume manufacture of adapter plates and coupler. I imagine we could get 10 made for $200/vehicle if they are already programmed into a NC machine. Maybe keep the clutch to make the transition easy? This might add expense, not sure.

3/ Lead acid is the obvious low cost choice but how about a 72V Lithium pack? BTW I agree that that the long term running costs are lower for Lithium, however what I am trying to hit here is a very low up front capital cost. I figure the key is to get as many people as possible to experience EVs - the key to that is low capital costs.

4/ At a total cost of $6k the donor cars could be a little rougher than if you are spending $20k, so we could save there.

5/ A 6 x 12V battery system could be charged with 6 x $80 12V car chargers, so charger costs < $500. Maybe something similar for Lithiums with some sort of BMS.

6/ Could we build 10 EVs for $60k? I imagine a discount of perhaps 30% for 10 x motors/controllers/batteries etc, especially buying direct from the US.

7/ Really simple battery racks and standardise on one vehicle (or just a few). I know I probably spent twice as long on my EV conversion as I had to.....

I would appreciate all your thoughts & brain-storms.

Thanks,

David

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Post by Goombi » Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 19:01

My budget is bit less then that and all new gear My Barina was actually free i sold all the combustion stuff. Chinese controller 9.1"motor 8.5 kW top 45 hp charger-96 volt- around $2.400 batteries $2000 8x100amp-agm. Bigest expence can be our local Engineers for modification aproval and safety compliance plate/// demister $50 vacuum pump $200 cables and connectors $200 incidentals $300 engineering $300 $5500 the lot rest is ones own work. and that is where it can become expensive-- labour cost-- easy double the total cost. If one is not in a hurry it is a good and constructive hobby....
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Post by Benonymous » Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 19:04

6K eh.... I would think if you were making a thousand you might be able to work the costs down to a mark around there. However, the least expensive conversion option is using a DC motor and controller. Series DC motors are mechanically and electrically inefficient compared to AC so in some ways it wouldn't be the best advertisement for EV's in general. The type of speed/range value you've nominated could be done with a 72V pack but not many people are going to be truly happy with a car limited to 60Kmh and 40Km. I'm sure the right niche market could be found especially amongst the capital city commuters so that may not be a big problem.

The main problem is that the hardware is still going to consume almost all of your 6K leeaving little for the job of actually performing the conversion. This is why the Blade costs what it does. Sadly, the market for EV hardware is still small and specialised. In addition to this, no Australian enterprises have stepped up to the plate to offer any locally made equipment. This still mystifies me. With all the engineering resources we have here and a good many electrical equipment manufacturers.....nothing.

The "Perfect Storm" for your idea is:

A local manufacturer of an EV specific motor/controller combo.
Standardise on one model of car to convert (Corolla?)
A BIG battery order from China.

I don't think you'd get down to 6K but you might get close.

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Post by drowe67 » Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 00:00

Nice work Goombi - can you post some links for your motor/controller/charger pls?

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 01:20

drowe67 wrote:So is a $6k EV possible in Australia? I thought I would start this thread to get some ideas on how to dramatically lower EV conversion costs.


Image   Image

Hmmm Interesting.
Surely a smaller DC motor on a light vehicle with low range should be possible.
I might go crunch some numbers Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 21:45

does the $6k include the doner car?
If it does then it would need to be a bucket of rust with 25km range.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by Goombi » Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 22:31

Richo
Have you ever finised one EV yet?
If you have then i will listen to you-- If you have not then you are full of hot air and very critical what people say as a discussion and sceptical what people do.... You are not king Solomons progeny.






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woody
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Post by woody » Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 23:26

Richo,
2nd hand cars are cheap if you go for ugly and/or boring and/or unreliable.
cheers,
Woody
PS: Use more smileys ppl. things are getting tense :-)
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

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EV2Go
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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 23:42

I might have one butt ugly 1990 model Nissan Pintara to donate as a donor car shortly, as I am in the market for a car that leaks slightly less oil and runs on all 4 cylinders Image

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Post by woody » Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 00:40

yep $0 was what I bought and sold my 1989 pintara for. Ideal family EV. Big and light.
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

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Post by Goombi » Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 00:43

Most suitable Cars availabe in queensland for conversiona Are--Holden Barina. Daihatsu Charade-Suzuki swift-city- ford laser gl Ford Festiva-
Mazda bubble 303--- all these on e-bay around 500$ Make offers.. They are not old cars and most for sale are clean and bodies good.. and the motor? It Don't metta--- Most these are round 750 kg Curb weight. ---Plus you can pick any big petrol guzzling car for few dollars Image But you will need double AC POWER just like petrol power

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 01:14

$900 Excel Image
drowe67 wrote: Nice work Goombi - can you post some links for your motor/controller/charger pls?

Goombi's the man. Image
He has already done what David has asked.
Is there a place where we can see your car so others can build one too?

You don't need to listen to me.
My hands are tied until our local govt approves my mods for my eV. Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 01:28

Goombi will you be releasing Barina kits?
If you build 10 kits would it make it cheaper for other people wanting to drive an eV today?
This might be a good way for AEVA to get people into eV's
AEVA could hold workshops where members/visitors could come in and get hands on building one.
That way conversion cost is down as people who want to build/learn are doing it for free.
Then sell the car.

Good work Goombi Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by Goombi » Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 05:47

I never said anything about 10 kits. you are in a habit of making thing up. Please connect the messages to the correct writers

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 06:12

But that is the point of this thread.
Make an eV for under $6k.
YOU have done it.
So how can we make what you have done into kit form?
The easiest would be if you sold kits.
Do you have links or a blog that others can follow?

My option included a bucket of rust excel with only HALF the range.
So my option doesn't sound so appealing anymore. Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by Mr Camouflage » Mon, 25 Aug 2008, 10:26

Richo wrote: does the $6k include the doner car?
If it does then it would need to be a bucket of rust with 25km range.


I saw a 4 door late 80's early 90's BMW E series (E30? was like the one in your avatar 318, 325 that sort of model) for sale for $600 on friday.

So not all cheap cars are rust buckets.

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Post by Goombi » Sun, 31 Aug 2008, 04:25


My search is almost finished.
Ordered Dc-Dc converter from china $258 delivered and its what i needed to the spec.
The heater demister is also solved see-heater-demist chat
Pump and switch new cheap Thomas.Made my own vacuum canister from Iplex PVC pipe.
Motor controller -coupler-fitting and charger all ready.

but i am not--

all costs falling withing the under 6000$ conversion.

From now its up to me to machine the plate and coupling set it up batteries are ready to be picked up 8x100amp agm plus one auxilliery 60amp.. Have the steel and bolts for battery boxes and above the el. motor shelving for all the miriad of wires conduiting and motor waterproofing louver plates.
Cables are ready to cut for batteries and orange conduit to taks the high power cables under the car.

Now its up to me.. move-move.

Ifter i decided to make this BARINA EV in June i give myself 6 week for Barina to be ready for registration.I think it will be 12-15 weeks now
There was some delay in chosing the right parts. and the delivey delays
From now its up to me to machine the plate and coupling set it up batteries are ready to be picked up 8x100amp agm plus one auxilliery 60amp.. Have the steel and bolts for battery boxes and above the el. motor shelving for all the miriad of wires conduiting and motor waterproofing louver plates.
Cables are ready to cut for batteries and orange conduit to taks the high power cables under the car.
Now its up to me.. move-move.


Very happy with the budget and the final cost will now depend only on Qld Transport Engineer to aprove the EV for registration.

Then i will make my rounds of Local businesses to see if they can make small donation for the sign and advert. My barina will be local car and used in town mainly so it will be beneficial for business houses to support a polution free vehicle.. I will also go to PETROL STATIONS and take donations without adds.. i like this GAMBIT This will be fun.

I will also bombard the gov. and oposition to Support EV converters with 4.000$ min donation towards any EV that will be registered- within 9 month. When my car is ready and registered I will apply for a petition to support private EV manufacturers... When i am ready i will ask all of you to help me with signatures in your areas. Thanks
Last edited by Goombi on Wed, 03 Sep 2008, 03:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bromal » Sat, 19 May 2012, 01:53

Why is the 6k the upper figure. please consider another approach that provides up to $12,000 a car based on a cross subsubsidizing of the car conversion from the savings on house running costs. If you take a subsidised solar energy roof top installation and swap half its battery pack each day into your car and allow the power savings on home generated electricity and funds saved on fuel and car servicing and running costs you can pay off a line of credit loan of $15,000 over 5 years at it low rate interest of around 6%. if oyu travel an average of 50km a day.
After paying for the solar install, you have 11,000 to 12,000 not $6000 to build you car conversion.
Strip out the engine and gearbox and use an inverter and 3 phase controller ac motor coupled direct to an replacement for the free wheeling rear wheels by using a retrofit rear wheel diff to replace the front wheel drive. Put the batteries and tyre in a quick swap over, slide in slide out tray in the front of the car where the empty engine is. Batteries at 40watts.hrs/kg will provide 5KW.Hrs of drive power from 150kg of batteries. The controller and inverter and ac motor should provide a short duration 15KW peak power drawdown for acceleration and the batteries should run the car on flat roads for a draw down of less than 3 KW continuous and require a near zero demand at red lights and on downhill runs. Everything else remains unchanged except the low pressure motor pump needed to drive the vacuum booster on the brake circuit and the power steering pump. Vehicle mass should be around 100 to 140 kg lighter with no engine gearbox and a top speed of 65 kph. I have based the energy average of .09kwHrs/km specific energy usage and a vehicle mass without passengers of 750 kg.
bro

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Post by AMPrentice » Sun, 20 May 2012, 01:12

Ive got a 1967 datsun 1000 - perfect mechanicals inside out
great body factory weight 635kg (with heater 625kg without)

no power steering - dont need it its so light and simple
no air con - cool white duco, good ventilation & 12v face fan :)
no power assistance yet stops like F1 racer due to disc upgrade
no electric windows so keep my arms from been useless
no radio so I can converse keeping my brain clear
Ridding the ICE running gear will make it even more enjoyable.

how much to make it an EV using Goombis method probably a tad less
but at least I can have a simple A to B car with easy upkeep and
will make others see that fancy is just not always needed

I really like the Trev and the Tango T series - any car that seats two in tandem for the changing world of overcrowded cities and burbs and small driveways just makes total sense but who is going to make it locally and pass all the laws to protect Ford and Holden?
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Post by Goombi » Sun, 20 May 2012, 01:41

AM Prentice: Sensible atitude-- simpler the better Regards Goombi

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Post by woody » Mon, 21 May 2012, 19:30

Good to see you back Goombi :-)
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Post by Richo » Mon, 21 May 2012, 21:10

Hey Bro - Sounds good in theory.
But I seriously doubt it could be done as you suggest.
The batteries should be charged at night at the low rate rather than suck off the excess solar power during the day.
Having two packs doesn't really make economic sense either.
A rear end retro-fit kit sounds nasty - extra cost to buy and to certify.
A personal loan is more like 9-10%.
Current interest rates on a secured property is more like 7%.
Getting an an secured loan for an eV conversion would be tricky at best.

Nice thought tho
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by AMPrentice » Wed, 23 May 2012, 07:09

Goombi wrote: AM Prentice: Sensible atitude-- simpler the better Regards Goombi

Pity Im not as sensible as you Goombi Im still wet behind the ears at 42 yrs old but hopefully in time I can drive my creation certified with an EV smile Image
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