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Thalass
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Post by Thalass »

I would certainly consider a US 3 phase motor, myself. 600v of TS LFP batteries (the 40Ah ones) costs something like $17k, before shipping and including a discount!


240/0.707 is around 340v, which should be around $6500ish for 40Ah ones pre-shipping. Even if I have to pay a few grand to ship the motor(s) from the US it'll still be cheaper :p



Although... having run the numbers properly, at 340v I'll need 60Ah cells, which would cost $14,688, so not that much of a saving. :(


Hrm... Tuarn, you said that your motor was 415v, which as I understand it is running in delta configuration so that's the maximum voltage between the windings. Could you not have your motor wound in star config and therefore have 340v peak between the windings and neutral? I suppose there would be a penalty in power or something, of course.
Last edited by Thalass on Sat, 23 Aug 2008, 08:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

Rob M wrote: There will probably be a bulk order of Thunder-Sky batteries soon. The price of the last order was Au$1.62 per Ah delivered including freight, customs clearance, GST and insurance. there might be slight variations depending on the exchange rate. You can register your interest by email to rob@mpcwa.com
600V is around 188cells.
$1.62/ah x 40Ah = $64.80
$64.80 x 188 = $12182.40

But don't forget that it will weigh 300kg.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Thalass
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Post by Thalass »

Unfortunately I won't be able to start my conversion for a year or so, so I won't be able to join in. But if there's another bulk buy in about 18-24 months I'll be in!
I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.
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Post by Richo »

what range did you want?
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Thalass »

About 60km. I'm not sure if the equations I'm using are relevant to AC conversions, though.
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Post by Richo »

60km x 160Wh = 9600Wh
9600Wh / 0.8DOD = 12000Wh
12000Wh / 200 cells = 60Wh per cell.
60Wh / 3.2V = 18.75Ah
ie A 20Ah 3.2V cell should do 60km.

So if you could use a 20Ah LiFePO4 battery it would weigh around 150kg in a pack.
And cost $7-8k instead.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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antiscab
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Post by antiscab »

just one point,
if you aim for a range of 60km, your average dishcharge will be 1C or more.
ac 1C or more, count on 3vpc as the nominal voltage for energy available/range considerations.

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Post by Johny »

Mesuge. The 'evaluation' of the HPI6000 unit is not free (worst luck).
I will upload the manual for the HPI5000 on Monday - it's at work - he says it's pretty much the same.
Two things had put me off this drive.
1. The lack of Torque Control - that's been fixed.
2. The poor quality of the English version of the manual.
For instance the word 'torque' never gets mentioned. Instead the term 'moment of force' is used. Parameters were difficult to follow. The CHV series Chinese drives' manual was, in contrast, very good. But the CHV is about USD1700. The company that makes the HPI6000 was also the mob that has USD159 brake units and very inexpensive brake resistors - I'll see if that pdf fits on my web page as well.

BTW It both cases the shipping costs were VERY low. Customs/Duty will kick in as cost is > AU$1000.
Last edited by Johny on Sun, 24 Aug 2008, 06:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Thalass
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Post by Thalass »

Richo wrote: 60km x 160Wh = 9600Wh
9600Wh / 0.8DOD = 12000Wh
12000Wh / 200 cells = 60Wh per cell.
60Wh / 3.2V = 18.75Ah
ie A 20Ah 3.2V cell should do 60km.

So if you could use a 20Ah LiFePO4 battery it would weigh around 150kg in a pack.
And cost $7-8k instead.



Where are you getting 160Wh/km? I've heard of various methods: Multiply the L/100km figure by 20 (I think I got 240wh/km from that) and there's also one based on vehicle mass (which doesn't take aerodynamics into account, but I get around 200wh/km for that).


Unfortunately TS don't sell a 20Ah battery, and a (quick) google search finds a few places, but no batteries that look able to discharge high currents for extended periods of time. And judging by their websites and the spelling on the datasheets, I'm not sure I want to send them my money. heh.

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Post by woody »

Thalass wrote: Unfortunately TS don't sell a 20Ah battery
Or do they?
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack
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Post by Richo »

Thalass wrote: Where are you getting 160Wh/km?


A good book on physics will have most info required to work it out.
I made a spreadsheet that factors most variables in.
There are on-line calculators but since I can save mine and adjust them as needed it's more convienient.
Obviously in a strong head wind the range would be less.

Trying to work it out from petrol consumption seems a really round about way to work it out.
And the point of an eV is to leave the petrol out of the equation Image

If you want more accurate data PM me your Brumby specs.

As some people are finding out 40Ah is quite large for a general commuter AC conversion.
If I was putting TS 40Ah cells in my BMW I would have to rip out the back seat to keep it a realistic weight.
Last edited by Richo on Sun, 24 Aug 2008, 12:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by acmotor »

Just a bit of my reasoning here...
TS are rated to 3C with pulse (not 30 seconds) to higher.
They drop 0.2V/C so at 3C that's 2.6V output per cell.
Now you can get smaller cells say 20 or 10Ah on the market but voltage will sag badly under load.

On my rodeo planned load is 120A (72kW)(3C on 40Ah)on 22kW motor based on red suzi 60A (36kW) on 11kW motor.

120A is 3C on 40Ah TS so I chose them.
20Ah TS would not be smart in my mind (and very wasteful of power).
If I pulled 120A on them cell voltage would drop to 2V !

If you are going to use smaller Ah cells then they must be lower ESR (A123s etc). This is fine. BTW I would consider LiPo.
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Post by antiscab »

hi richo,

200x ts lfp40s is only 300kg, why would you need to remove the back seat?
robs latest 318i converison has 290kg of lithium in it, and the back seat is being retained. (of course it hasnt gone through rego just yet)

Matt
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2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
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Post by Richo »

Industrial AC motors are heaver.
I would be happy if I could fit 300kg of batteries in.
That would give me a good range.
I will need a rolling shell of 640kg to achive that.
As soon as the DPI give me a green light I'll furiously rip it all out give it a quick weigh and then I'll know for sure.
So instead of ultra-light LiFePO4 it will be TS cells...
And I'll put in with Rob for the next group buy.

I agree smaller cells will need higher discharge rates.
20Ah would need more like 7C burst.
So the smaller TS cell would not be suitable.
Unless you want to drive like my grandma. Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Johny »

Mesuge, I have uploaded the manual for the HPI5000 AC Drive onto my web site. This won't stay there forever - sorry latecomers - so grab a copy if wanted. Keep in mind this is the earlier non-torque controlled drives manual.
There is also a spreadsheet with braking resistor prices from a different vendor. Contact me if you want an email address for this one. BTW I may have failed to note that the CHV does 180% overload (but is 40-50% more expensive). The CHV manual is up there too.
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Post by Thalass »

woody wrote:
Thalass wrote: Unfortunately TS don't sell a 20Ah battery
Or do they?


Huh... They don't sell them in australia, it looks like. :(



Depending on when it is, I will definitely join in on a group buy next year or so. House won't be finished until may or june next year, and we're going away on holidays around that time too, apparently. (the war office tells me this, so it must be so) But after that I can get started!
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Post by Mesuge »

Johny> Thanks for the upload, the "INVT" brand looks more solid than HPI. I'll write them about the possibility of traction application software in their vfd (EV firmware) as option in the future. Now here is the temp address with manuals/brochures again:
http://home.iprimus.com.au/jlrw/

Quick overview of INVT company here:
http://invt.en.alibaba.com/
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Post by AMPrentice »

Richo wrote: Industrial AC motors are heaver.
I would be happy if I could fit 300kg of batteries in.
That would give me a good range.
I will need a rolling shell of 640kg to achive that.


You can find many vehicles that will weigh under 640 with a rolling shell.
Most small classic cars are around 800kgs and have 180-200kgs of ice equipment.

eg. My Dat 1000 2 door sedan
weighed 625kg from factory (no heater or radio!!)

625KG minus the following
- engine and box 105 kg
- radiator and fluids (oil, coolant) 15 kg
- exhaust 15kg
- tar removal, further lightened interior, alloy bumperettes 15kg
- old battery (replaced with 6.7kg one) 5kg savings
- New magnesium rims and high silicone tires
(same weight as steel rims/tires)

New weight rolling body
470KG

Now to get very pedantic I could go a tad further but at great cost
eg. Carbon composite leaf springs (corvette like front leaf + 2 on rear)
From 32kg down to 12.8 kg lighter by almost 20kg.
Also custom cut anti-shatter lightweight Lexan 3 rear windows save 5kgs
Carbon fibre doors custom made in japan save 38kg (originals 28kgs each)

but the cost of saving the last 63kg is about $8000 or a lithium pack!!
On the other hand if I love this car and I dont invest in a new car then
this money is well spent.

New total rolling weight 407kg.

Add 11 inch W x 18.5 L inch modified Hyster GE motor for blower 85kg
(Rear drive housing swapped for a flat alloy swiss cheese plate.)
Add Quickchange Winters rear end (no weight penalty same weight as ori ginal)
Add 144volts of LifePo4 at 100AH 148.5kg with BMS, charger and supports 160
Add Controller, dc-dc, wiring and the rest about 35kg (maybe missed something?)
total EV running gear 280kg

407 + 280kg = 687kg

Now say 687kg is pretty light with a big 11 inch motor and direct drive.
I want to do no more than 145kph as at 100kph the motor should be at its
best efficiency, yet have plenty down low for acceleration.

Now you have to find a glider that weighs around 850kg complete
and if you search you will find plenty with heaters!! ;))
Either way ceramic heater setups are lighter in the end.
Now I know you want RWD and if you where to pursue the BMW 3 series
I guess that what you have? then you could also consider the many
lightweight carbon fibre parts available. Now its a classic so although
the investment is large its no more than a new crappy 30-40k heavy car.

Although my one is a based around a DC conversion the weights are similar
with 11in motor and just add a tad more for controller and your choice of batteries.
My theoretical pack is 144v @ 100Ah = 14.4kw but 11.5kw at 80DOD.
Im not sure on range but I guess a little better than 60klm can anyone
help here? aerodynamics are similar to a Hyundai Excel.
Below is one just like mine around 590kg instead of 625kg. This one from japan.
Image
Last edited by AMPrentice on Tue, 26 Aug 2008, 09:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by priit »

Weather 300kg of batteries is much or not so much depends on the car. When you look at the Audi conversion project, the engine with the gearbox was 350kg so 300kg for batteries to put in there will not be a problem.

http://www.metricmind.com/audi/7-engine.htm
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Post by Gow864 »

Does anyone know anything about this mob? http://www.uqm.com/ps.php
Any opinions/comments on their offerings??
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Post by Richo »

AMPrentice wrote:
Now I know you want RWD and if you where to pursue the BMW 3 series
I guess that what you have? then you could also consider the many
lightweight carbon fibre parts available. Now its a classic so although
the investment is large its no more than a new crappy 30-40k heavy car.


Thanks AMPrentice but everybody has different requirements in a vehicle.
A small car like yours is not practical for families with prams.
For a start it is 2 doors short.
The boot bearly fits a light shop let alone a full shop with baby stuff and prams.
Hence choosing the BMW E30 for me was more practical and suited my requirements.
I then bought an E30 off e-bay.

The point of an industrial AC conversion was to convert cheaply.
Spending extra for carbon firbe parts kind of defeats the purpose.

I don't see the investment is large.
I'm not spending anywhere near $30k for it.
The BMW E30 only weighs 1030kg curb weight so would hardly be considered heavy in comparison to a moden family car.

But I do like your car.
Would make a damn nice conversion.
You should get over 60km depending on how you drive Image
Where do you get a 100Ah pack?
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Richo »

Gow864 wrote: Does anyone know anything about this mob? http://www.uqm.com/ps.php
Any opinions/comments on their offerings??


Never herd of them but they have nice motors!
They are Permanent magnet type.
I expect them to be quite expensive as magnet prices have not dropped yet.
The powerphase 100 would be similar to my 22kW ACIM.
Except they are liquid cooled so have a higher cont rating.

If I had the money I'd buy that instead Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Gow864 »

I've emailed them for a price list. We'll see what happens.
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

Prices are good.
The more information we have the better choices we can make.
Good work Gow864 Image

Also you can click "post option" on the right to edit a post for typos etc.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Gow864 »

I just had a read on their site :( They do not sell to the general public. Only OEM's. I can understand that from a support and warranty point of view... but it still sucks!

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