Going AC thanks 2 you guys!!!

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AMPrentice
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Post by AMPrentice »

Well I really need some input here as I want to buy this thing
if its suitable for a Tuarn-pioneered like AC conversion.
The seller doesnt sell internationally so Im going to get a mate
to buy it for me over there and deliver it to me here.
That is if its the right Drive? Its so small!!
Its a Kimatek drive KMP series
KIMATEK

50hp 460VAC

Image

I really need to move on it before it goes though otherwise the
Azure controller is really something if it can run an industrial
motor as its minimal input voltage is 144 volts.

Im considering the Greensavers too but in sp27-12 27ah @ 2hrs.
Anyone know the cutoff voltage? (10.5 for safety?)

How many will I need to get this drive working well?
I know 50 x 12v would be great but 500kg wont do.
I was thinking 37 or 38 of them would that be enough?

Power HP(C.T/V.T): 50HP / 60HP ----(is this true??????)
Input Phase / Voltage(Vac): 3Phase / 380 ~ 500Vac
Rates Input Current: 72A -   Output F.L.A.: 72A
Max. Output Torque/Freq: 200% / 0 ~ 800Hz
W 225mm x H 465mm x D 330mm Weight 22KG
Last edited by AMPrentice on Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mesuge »

You have to check with the vendor about the set of possible "no-goes":

- is it constant torque capable unit?
- DC BUS (is there anyway) and how's the input voltage range?
- brake chopper and resistors are available or hackable?
- how much you can "overclock" the unit for a few seconds/1min
(110% is not enough)
- EMI filter included or possible to add?
(does it comply any int. standards)
- various logic I/O function come handy to simplify operation/wiring
..
..
.


Tuarn, Mal and other AC gurus might chip in few more.
Last edited by Mesuge on Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 17:18, edited 1 time in total.
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AMPrentice
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Post by AMPrentice »

Mesuge wrote: You have to check with the vendor about the set of possible "no-goes":

- is it constant torque capable unit? ----I think so
- DC BUS (is there anyway) and how's the input voltage range? ---??
- brake chopper and transistors are available or hackable?---??
- how much you can "overclock" the unit for a few seconds/1min ---??
(110% is not enough)
- EMI filter included or possible to add? ---???
(does it comply any int. standards)
- various logic I/O function come handy to simplify operation/wiring---I think so
..
Tuarn, Mal and other AC gurus might chip in few more.


The manuals are quite informative but Im a goose when it comes to
electronics but I want to learn!!! Image even though Im gettin long
in the tooth. Image
http://www.kimatek.com/resource.html

Please help fellas
Last edited by AMPrentice on Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 08:59, edited 1 time in total.
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woody
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Post by woody »

Going from a very quick skim of the Manual, by someone who's only ever seen Mal's Danfoss (powered off) ...

http://www.kimatek.com/pdf/kmp_manual.pdf

Looks like an "S10" for sale.

page 32 wiring diagram indicates the DC bus is available on connections 47 + 49.

Feature list (page 5):

sensorless, vectorial VTC software for high torque demanding performance through jumper

selection (direct torque control) (*);

Wide range of supply voltage (200VAC ~ 500VAC) for stand-alone models and up to 690VAC for cabinet models. Standard power supply: 280VDC ~ 705VDC. (970VDC for cabinet models).

Page 60: motor specs
• Current/torque to motor/time
105-200% for 2min. every 20min. up to S30.
105-200% for 1min. every 10min. from S40.
• Starting torque/max. time
240% for a short time

Looks like regen braking is only 20-30% (page 60)

Lots of I/O (4 analogue, 8 digital in, 2 analogue out, 3 digital out) (page 60)

Downsides: only goes to 120Hz when using torque control - which you want to, so you're limited to approx 3600 RPM on a 4 pole motor, but you wouldn't want to go much past 4000 RPM on industrial AC motors anyway.

cheers,
Woody

[ Edited Coulomb: Repaired bad Unicode chars in preparation for conversion to phpBB ]
Last edited by coulomb on Sun, 25 Jun 2017, 09:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EV2Go »

I dont speak geek speak but...

DC braking 30%*Cn
Braking while decelerating up to 20%*Cn (with
no braking resistor)
Braking while decelerating up to 150%*Cn (with
braking resistors)

it looks like it has capability of greater than 30%

As a said I don't know didly squat about these things but that is the impression I get.
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Post by Mesuge »

That regen braking limitation to <30% most likely refers only to using its internal braking chopper and brake resistor, it limited because of weight, waste heat management and price reasons.

-
"Integrated braking chopper upto S30"

edit: yes, so it's confirmed from their spec sheet
They claim that the internal chopper is installed upto ~100hp product range. You have to check with them about possible upgrades of brake chopper from S40 range to get higher regen on S30 etc. They call
it "BU200 braking unit - external option" in options section of the spec sheet.
http://www.kimatek.com/pdf/catalog.pdf
-

Usually on higher power output vfds, say 30-40kW upwards you get these additional units only as extra, hence at least ~90% regen possible then. Chopper(s) and resistor(s) will set you back in ~30-40kw vfd system for cca $1k (list price), a bit less in reality..

At least that's how it works with other "proven brands" AB, Teco etc.

As far as available info suggests the only exception to the rule is the Rolls~Royce of VFDized diy EVs: the Danfoss VLT/FC brand with "extended braking option", but this is factory installed feature only. Moreover, these are so rare in terms of overall Danfoss co. volume production that they show up only once/twice per year on ebay, so it's more realistic to go with other less expensive brands for new vfd and those extra circuits. Brand new Danfoss vfd is also an option just MASSIVELY expensive, in higher power output range it's probably better to go directly with EV/automotive grade vfds, EVISOL, MES-DEA, Azure/Solectria..

-
The manual is definately worth to look into,
many general subjects explained and covered..
http://www.kimatek.com/pdf/kmp_manual.pdf
-
Last edited by Mesuge on Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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AMPrentice
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Post by AMPrentice »

Thank you guys now Im more confused than ever Image
I wish I chose a different career 25 years ago
Image

Well I can buy this one too the lower spec Rolls Royce
for 300usd but not that keen on the size of these drives
unless they can be modified???

danfoss VLT 6042

Id prefer the KMP with the s15 050 code which is what I thought was for sale
if you look at page 17 on the catalogue it shows it is this case size and weight
catalogue go to page 17
but should I buy the 6042 danfoss??
Last edited by AMPrentice on Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 17:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johny »

The 6000 series are HVAC drives which stands for Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning. They are not high torque drives and there will be difficulties with regen braking etc. pretty much a no-go. In Danfoss, look for 3000 and 5000 series. I put a 30kW Danfoss on 'Ebay finds' yesterday which you could land here for around $1500. It would happily power an 11kW motor and may be OK for 15kW.
I have broken the line a bit in that I have bought a 15kW to power a 11kW motor. The one I bought can do %150 for 60 seconds so Im hoping to get away with that. if not, it was inexpensive (and light - 18kg) so I'll chase another one.

BTW The only reason I shied away from the Kimatek was that they don't ship to Australia (US to Oz shipping on heavy stuff is a killer) - it looked good to me.
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Post by Mesuge »

VLT 6000 series is primarily for HVAC work (AC, fans, etc.) so it can be overloaded less than VLT 5000, you need bigger/heavier emotor. But more importantely this specific unit lacks the braking module, so you can't limit the energy inrush when going downhill with full bateries and/or limit the voltage for grid charging the batteries. Also it might not have the DC BUS option, so in order to connect your DC batt. pack you will have to hack it somehow inside, doable, but dangerous. It seems to lack filters and communication bus too. I thik that Mal(4x4) sold his HVAC Danfoss for some of these reasons.

But the price is VERY good and the drive looks ok, so I'm not saying it won't work at all..
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Post by Mesuge »

Btw. in the .pdf catalogue are listed contacts of 2x dealers in Australia(NSW,WA) for Kimatec/Santerno inverters. So, why don't you check their prices & availability, that "outlet" guy on ebay might eventualy have some sort of lemons.

And that's the "real" corporate website, :
http://www.elettronicasanterno.it/en/pr ... famiglia=2

They are members of this industrial group:
http://www.carraro.com/

So, the reason why they were low key so far, was that they have been bought out in May 2006, they are relatively new kid on the block.

!And the stated reason for aquisition of this automation division is expansion in the "hybrid transportation industry", hah! Isn't it what Tuarn asked Danfoss people, why don't you start making AC drives for EVs, guys! Well these italian vfds look much better in this perspective now..

going wild here:
*with optional Ethernet Modbus/TCP card for this inverter and separate Ethernet-GSM/GPRS/3G router and or Wifi/3G router for the car very crazy aplications are indeed possible and geek favorable:

- remote over/internet EV diagnostics and tweaks
- warnings/status messages - your EV will call you on the cellphone etc.
- remote control of preheating/venting of batteries
- remote control of AC/preheating car in the garage before trip on home LAN
- remote video/audio control
..

*this should be possible with any modern comm. protocol equipped vfd
Last edited by Mesuge on Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 01:43, edited 1 time in total.
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AMPrentice
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Post by AMPrentice »

Mesuge wrote: Btw. in the .pdf catalogue are listed contacts of 2x dealers in Australia(NSW,WA) for Kimatec/Santerno inverters. So, why don't you check their prices & availability, that "outlet" guy on ebay might eventualy have some sort of lemons.

And that's the "real" corporate website, :
http://www.elettronicasanterno.it/en/pr ... famiglia=2

They are members of this industrial group:
http://www.carraro.com/

So, the reason why they were low key so far, was that they have been bought out in May 2006, they are relatively new kid on the block.

!And the stated reason for aquisition of this automation division is expansion in the "hybrid transportation industry", hah! Isn't it what Tuarn asked Danfoss people, why don't you start making AC drives for EVs, guys! Well these italian vfds look much better in this perspective..


Mesuge thank you for the link!!!!! If I call the aussie distributor what should I ask? I know to say hello ;D

I knew my persistant uneducated curiosity would unearth something! LOL
So what should I do buy that thing or not?!!
Last edited by AMPrentice on Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mesuge »

Well, as I said I'm now quite excited about these inverters, reading the manual now. Actually there is one working EV in my country with this vfd, it's rather experimental and not road legal (no plates 4x4 Samurai), but clearly "Red Suzi" inspired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6fzaZBPz-Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-adCLD0GiLM
http://www.evalbum.com/1849

--
Questions:
1. First of all check the pricing at least approximate range for say 20kW, 40kW, 60kW drives in 380-415V segment for both SINUS K and *SINUS PENTA. That ebay U.S. guy seems to be too good to be true pricewise, or he just lucked out some "free" samples.

2. Ask them if one wants higher regen than 30%, is it possible to connect that external braking unit also to <S30 sized inverters, so to bypass or add to the internal one.

Your Australian/NZ dealer has got a website here:
http://www.nhp.com.au/santerno/overview.asp
http://www.nhp.com.au/santerno/FAQ.asp
-----

*more advanced, 5x modulations/firmwares to choose from, designed for traction applications, open/close loop, PLC functions etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------
The -=Sinus Penta=- series has been clearly made with EV operation
in mind, special firmware/software application with settings for
automotive use, even CAN-BMS communication and safety options!,
braking/regen ramps etc. See Elettronica Santerno’s Catalogue
about Software Accessories.


!Manual here:
http://www.elettronicasanterno.it/syste ... R00_UK.pdf

I just don't want to hear the pricing though, anyway that's certainly great news, finaly for the first time industrial AC VFD manufacturer jumped the board towards EVs, well there was Zivan and others but this is very promising!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Mesuge on Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 04:37, edited 1 time in total.
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AMPrentice
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Post by AMPrentice »

Looked at the Zuk and its pretty nifty!

Also checked the Asynchronous VECTOR motors up to 314kW and they are similar to
the siemens in design very nifty and 17kw nominal on a 90kg frame.

You are right about the price and look at his location the same as the dealer so probably they are offloading some drives or these are fixed or demo models???

Ill check the prices first locally but Im guessing 5k USD at least new.

question 2. I just checked the link and there is no phone number.
but there is a fill in information e-section here is the link
info request online
could you pls write the questions as Im not educated to know what to ask.
Image
Last edited by AMPrentice on Wed, 20 Aug 2008, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johny »

External braking units are essentially a single IGBT (Transistor) switch (earlier Allen Bradley's even used contactors) that are set to about 750-800 volts and switch in a big resistor when the voltage gets too high. The idea is to reduce the voltage do the VFD doesn't trip out on high voltage. Even though manufactures seem gung-ho about 'use mine' it looks to me like just about any braking unit will work on any drive. Think about it - you just want to draw lots of current into a load if the voltage gets too high.
One more thing. Either you or someone with some spare time and knowledge is going to have to set up this drive. Lots of reading and experimenting on axle stands. Check that someone on the forum will help with that. They don't have to geographically close.
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Post by Mesuge »

The external chopper most likely won't be needed afterall (reading), the internal one with added huge resistor should do ok. The regen torque selectable range in config allows for a lot.

These "SINUS PENTA" inverters with that special EV firmware/application uploaded seem to be relatively easy to wireup and operate, that's the purpose of the mod, check that .pdf. You can basically leave almost everything in default settings and drive, and later play slowly with tweaking the performance.

Plus those Simovert like square emotors, it just all looks too jolly good, I'm afraid there must be buried a bummer somewhere, eh price? But with 150-200% overload these 25-30-40kW (nominal) inverters shouldn't be that expensive, that's their entry range.
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Hi,

These drives look nice. I havent read the manual yet to check EV suitability.
The firmware option would be exciting.

I will check the manual in teh next few days.

Thanks and regards,
Mal.
Last edited by a4x4kiwi on Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 06:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Hi skimmed the appliation note. What an excelent document and drive.

The programming principles are similar for other drives. Do post your findings regarding price and availability. I think this provides a fantastic option for an industrial AC conversion.

I especially like the Zebra CAN interface. If only the Zebra batteries were not so unobtainium.
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Post by Johny »

I have had ongoing email contact with several Chinese drive manufacturers over the past months. This one keeps coming back to me. Originally they did not offer Torque Control - just speed control with variable torque. Anyway they have come back to me again with one that does Torque Control. The original price was USD$1150 landed in Melbourne (37kW). I have asked what the new price, if any, is.
I have placed the brochure on my temp web page:

http://home.iprimus.com.au/jlrw/HPI6000 Inverter.pdf

They also have a inexpensive (USD$159) braking unit and a selection of well-priced ceramic and aluminium braking resistors. I'll put that up if anyone is interested.

So far - out of about 20 drives the only ones I've hit that are not suitable are HVACs. Otherwise just about everything would work - one way or another. The Chinese ones look good as they do wide voltage range etc. Some warnings that I've read on the net about Vector control in cheap drives that "isn't quite-right" are slightly concerning but that could be cleared up before purchase.

Edit---
He emailed back:

"Hi, John,

The price of HPI6000 is same as that of HPI5000 with same specifications.
I am in position to send sample to you for testing purpose.

Hope to hear from you."

Hmmm
Last edited by Johny on Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 12:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mesuge »

"KMP" series on eBay -> got reply from that felllow, yes we smelled the fish from the start, this is discontinued line and that's why the firesale on ebay. These inverters have been/are now replaced by "Sinus K" and "Sinus Penta" range.
-

Sinus Penta -> what is interesting that these special battery/CAN-Zebra options in setup (engineering level) can be used with any other batt. technology, you just set it up in your BMS to send the right codes to your inverter, AND accordingly to your batt. pack, there are also several Zebra non exclusive parameters to play with. The Zebra-brain transplant could be done "easily" by connecting CAN/Modbus board/chip interface on your BMS.
-

Now the bad news, as expected the real price level is somewhere else!
Before we get some grip on dealers, dug out one crazy web shop with disclosed pricing in Germany, they sell only Sinus K (not that EV/battery firmware ver.) but it should be more or less comparable. Picking up just some samples from searching on their product page and possible application, these are 150-200% overload capable, check the big manual for limits/issues on that.
http://www.gruber-electric.com/en/produ ... 2&target=2


1/ Sinus K - 3*400V 15kW 30A IP20&EMV2 - (ultralights/experimental EVs)
1.464,27 €

2/ Sinus K - 3*400V 22kW 41A IP20&EMV2 - (NEVs, superminis):
2.126,77 €

3/ Sinus K - 3*400V 37kW 72A IP20&EMV2 - (highway entry):
3.250,34 €(all without VAT.)


Add surcharge for the Penta range with that fancy EV firmware.
Add ~16% for optional IP54 protection version, higher EMC/EMV etc. Braking unit is included not braking resistor, the diag/internet remote control software is free of charge.

I gather this italian-global brand might be still positioned bellow the Danfoss list pricing. Obviously Danfoss has got better pcb/assembly factory (at the moment), and product design but no EV application firmware option.
Last edited by Mesuge on Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 02:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johny »

Here is an extract from an article on using VFDs on screw type extruders. Ignore the current vs hp of the motor as they are talking 230 V AC motors. This gives an idea of VFD vs motor power scaling.

"4. Determine the VFD Size.
The VFD must be sized for at least 2 times the full-load amps of the motor to allow for the high inrush of current during screw feeder starting. For example, a typical 20-hp premium efficient motor is rated for 49-amps at full-load and 230-volts. A minimum of 98-amps are required for sizing the VFD for start up conditions. Most VFDs limit the current output to 150-percent of full-load amps because torque and current are not proportional above 150-percent torque. A typical 20-hp VFD is rated for 1.5 times full-load amps or 74-amps and is not sufficient for the application. A typical 30-hp VFD is rated for 108-amps at 230-volts. The minimum VFD size would be 30-hp. A 40-hp VFD would be recommended."

Conclusion. VFD power should be about double the Motor rating.

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Post by acmotor »

Remember not to consider the kW rating when sizing VFD. It only tells part of the story.

Look at the continuous and 1 minute peak ratings of output current.
Current = torque. This is what matters in an EV application.

Quite simply the current must be at least 3 x the nominal motor current BEFORE adjusting the load dependent V/F ratio. Then the final current needs to be around 4.5 x the nominal full load current for the motor.

How do you figure this out ?
Simple...
T(max)/Tn is typically 3.2 x this requires 3 x nominal current (at least, it is not fully linear)
Torque increase is the square of the voltage increase up to magnetic saturation. I find 20% voltage increase acceptable and this results in 40% torque increase.
Torque peak is then 3.2 * 1.4 = 4.48 x
My EV 11kW motor nominal is 22A @415V
I run with load dependent V/F (and VVCplus and overmodulation and all the Danfoss goodies) at 500V (lower revs until I'm limited by battery pack volts)
Now 22A x 4.5 = 99A at the motor.   Danfoss VLT5042 supplies 97 and it works quite well. You can't use any more but you lose out if you go for less current. I know that if I dial the current back on the Dan then the performance drops off.

The VLT5042 is considered a 30kW (high overload) drive with 160% torque overload.... but you need to look at currents. Some suppliers call this a 37kW (normal overload) drive. Currents are still much the same.
Basically it tries to punch 48kW out of an 11kW motor short term.

This is all playing close to pullout torque so you can come back a bit.

The quote in Johny's post is on the track although the numbers are very conservative and depend on motor size and manufacturer.
T(max)/Tn can vary from 2 to 4 and V(magnetic sat) can vary from 5% to 30%.
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Post by AMPrentice »

Is it possible I could use a motor like Tuarn´s ASEA motor and run it somehow
with the Azure DMOC445 unit?
As the afford-ability of finding, modifying and setting up an industrial drive is just too daunting for me now.
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Post by Johny »

The problem is that the DMCOC445 is a lower voltage than the common AC motor found in Australia. You would really need a USA motor - 240V, 3 phase.
Would you consider the industrial VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) route?
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Post by AMPrentice »

Johny wrote: The problem is that the DMCOC445 is a lower voltage than the common AC motor found in Australia. You would really need a USA motor - 240V, 3 phase.
Would you consider the industrial VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) route?


Id surely consider it if its affordable and available.

The DMCOC445 attracts me currently for its price range, lower volt high amp pack and if it can run a lightweight usa/jp motor at similar performance as an industrial drive then it would be a good option.

There are very good 12volt high amp agms that give the best power to weight capacity at 156-204 volts
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Post by Mesuge »

Johny wrote: Originally they did not offer Torque Control - just speed control with variable torque. Anyway they have come back to me again with one that does Torque Control. The original price was USD$1150 landed in Melbourne (37kW). I have asked what the new price, if any, is. I have placed the brochure on my temp web page:

http://home.iprimus.com.au/jlrw/HPI6000 Inverter.pdf


Thanks for this brochure, this must be their brand new product line as these inverters are not listed on the corp. website, only the older HPI5000 range. Although at least from the exterior it looks like reverse engineered Teco MA7200-7300CV vfd made in Taiwan.
http://www.softstarter.com.cn/Product.a ... e=Inverter

Well, I think the offer of sending evaluation sample to you shouldn't be missed. You and Tuarn could give it hell in testing.

The parameters look acceptable on paper to me, did you ask them about full English manual for HPI6000 is it ready yet or when it will be?

Would you ask them in some next reply, about their potential interest in doing strictly traction application/EV version of firmware as next step of their "torque control product line". It seems to me that one graph in that brochure (p.4) already suggest they go into this direction.

I think they will get the idea what we are after just from glancing on the Sinus Penta web and EV firmware manual:
http://www.elettronicasanterno.it/en/pr ... rodotto=81
http://www.elettronicasanterno.it/syste ... R00_UK.pdf

Also there is no word on emission standards compliance, EMC,
in the lower/mid range output <100kw..

PS pls. upload the rest of literature you got from them
Last edited by Mesuge on Fri, 22 Aug 2008, 20:18, edited 1 time in total.
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