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Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

I like to hear from EV owners about their delays and extra costs when getting their EV's aproved and registered. What are the main problems?
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

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So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

My wife read that, rolled her eyes and went back to the olympics on TV.
I'm safe for now. Quick, back to the shed.
Image
On the topic though. I feel that the NCOP14 needs to be revised as it does not result in safe EVs from an electrical point of view.
All the section on vetilation and wet cells needs to be removed and probably wet cells not allowed in conversions. I know that may result in some flack but I think wet lead is dangerous and so poor performance in the 21st century.

There is a confusion between suggestions and requirements. Personally I don't care what colour the wire is. If it is connected to a voltage greater than 72V then don't touch... and the requirement should be that you are not able to touch the terminals. (they are covered / insulated)

Comlpiance with electrical standards of earthing should be stressed more and the battery pack should not be isolated from the vehicle chassis, unless you can provide double insulation, including the motor. An insulation fault should blow a fuse (or similar) not a person. Ask any EV owner who has driven in the rain for instance.

An EV's battery pack should be able to be broken up into voltages of no more than 72V by contactors or mechanical switches located in or near the battery pack(s). In the case of contactors then these should be connected to an inertia switch and an externally visible stop switch. The first for crash safety and the second for emergency service personel.

There needs to be more discussion on this topic so people have a clear understanding of the requirements.

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Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

Agm batteries are OK to have mounted in the car cabin since VW has acid battery and its ok. Cutting a floor in a monocoque frame is possible so long as the main frame is not damaged or removed or welded to. Best place to have batteries inside a 2 door barina is to place the batteries where the back seat is Make a Angle iron frame rubberised, seal it with plates and build a firewall over the top( you can then decorate the frewall with a matching   seat matrial without the rubber and glue on also use the back rests to separate the sparewheel and loading area-
use exhaust plastic pipes from the battery box to ventilate One inlet and one outlet. that should satisfy most fastidious inspector.
The back seat area is the most acceptable position for batteries the vehicle will be perfectly ballanced and batteries are in where the passegers used to sit. One has to sacrifice the seat-- besides EV is not a TAXI. In reply to previous comment-- use rubber gloves and insulated tools when working with batteries and connections 120 volt will not kill you but its no pleasent to get a hit.
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Post by antiscab »

Hi Goombi,

good idea with the battery placement.
one thing you have to watch out for with monocoque frame cars is that its strength changes in unusual ways when you cut into them.
the whole point of having a monocoque frame is so that there is no main frame.

i know alot of the body "anti-sway" stiffness in my prelude comes from the steel in the floor.

you'll need to have an engineering certificate (not that difficult depending upon what youve done) for any modifications.
engineers seem to have a habit of only signing off on their own work :)

on the battery break up issue:
insulated tools should always be used on a battery pack, this i agree with (though have a tendancy not too follow, i spose i should invest in a insulated socket set)

the point of the break up contactors is so that when you are in a collision, and the battery boxes and surrounding frame have deformed enough to make contact with the battery terminals, the pack is isolated in many places to prevent the body/chasis from becoming live.

ive zapped myself on my scooter before (48v).
given that i was not able to stop my muscles from contracting, it was more than 50ma (it was hot, i was sweating profusely, and i was broken down on the side of the road due to a dodgy chinese BMS).
luckily the muscle contraction caused a break in the connection.

its the current that is dangerous. at higher voltage you are more likely to encounter a more dangerous current under fault conditions (such as when you've broken down on the side of the road, and you're sweating all over your insulated tools and accidentally make contact with your grounded chasis).

out of curiosity, how were you planning on restraining your battery pack?
im not aware of any places on the barina monocoque that will restrain 300kg at 20G.
not unachivable of course, but could be tricky.
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells
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Post by mickles »

Hi ACmotor,

I have read NCOP14 several times now and I don't think it has helped me much at all. There are words about complying with UN ECE Regulation No 100 and a suggestion that some knowledge can be gained by reading ANZ standard AS/NZS 3000:2000. I haven't tried to read either of these because I guess that they are full of electrical language that I won't understand.

What would be really helpful would be a schematic (or two) for a DC (and AC) conversion that shows all the detail to make it safe and acceptable to the motor registries. There also needs to be a set of notes that explains why the schematic is the way it is. If there is something like this I haven't come across it yet.

You wrote "Comlpiance with electrical standards of earthing should be stressed more and the battery pack should not be isolated from the vehicle chassis, unless you can provide double insulation, including the motor." Everything I have read in the EV literature has said that there should not be a connection between the high voltage and low voltage system. What am I missing?

        Dave.

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Post by Goombi »

DO NOT CONNECT YOUR BLACK (or red) HIGH VOLTAGE WIRE TO ANY PART OF THE CAR BODY
The 12 volt earth does not affect the high voltage since negative earth is only a dead polarity..
I belive all high voltage components like Controllers fuses contactors are doubly insulated. So long as you keep the 12 volt car system and High voltage separate and well apart and marked with diferent colour conduit you will not e missing anything.






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Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

antiscab,
The box will hold 6 agm batteries total 180 Kg including ther box there are anchors for seatbelts directly next to where i am planing to place the battery box so extra strip and bolt 4 all together the rest will be welded and bolted to the seat plate and U bolted to the sub frame. i have engineering experience and in steel construction also I am sure if i hit something that will represent 20G impact i will not be there to see if the batteries are in its original place-- but i have a feeling they will. Image




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EV2Go
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Post by EV2Go »

Goombi you just reminded my of a very funny story…

Many years ago (about 20 and bit) a mate of mine who I shared a house with who was an apprentice auto electrician at the time and I were working on my HZ ute which had 6 cylinder blue motor in it, the factory Bosch HEI ignition, mega dollar Magnacore plug leads, an 100,000v Acel super coil (the big yellow sucker) and an MSD 6AL.

Anyway we must have been checking the spark for some reason because I was cranking the car and we will call him “A” (just in case he should read this lol), was holding the coil lead just off the radiator support panel at the front of the car.

Now this thing was putting out some serious blue spark, anyway blokes being blokes we decide that we should see how far we could get the spark to ark. Well we got as far as we could with the length of the coil lead.

So “A” gets this bright idea… he brought home the work van and it has these made up super bloody heavy truck jumper leaders in the back of the van that are about 8 or 10 feet long. So “A” hooks one end of the jumper lead to plug wire and slowly moves away from the car.

Anyway this thing is flashing out this humongous blue sparks until he gets about probably 6 or 7 feet away from the car, they all of a sudden I see “A” go flying through the air backwards.

I still to this day can not believe that neither of us considered what would happen when this thing stopped arcing back to the car.

Anyway I run over to “A” figuring he is dead and he was laying there with these massive chest pains a bluish mark on you know the bit where they stick the needle in to draw blood out on his arm, it took him some considerable time before he could stand up.

I still piss myself today laughing thinking about this event and how the hell we never killed him Image

So you may be right 120v may not kill you, but I remember back in the 80s when I was in college my shop teacher told us that 32v could kill with enough amps.
Goombi
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Post by Goombi »


Looks like everyone had a smooth ride with the vehicle registrar. Anyone contemplating to go for completion needs to read this Guideline
---------------------------
uploads/437/NCOP14_Guidelines_Electric_ ... b20061.pdf
---------------------------

After having conversation with a very friendly QT Engineer for vehicle modification , the registration appear really not going to be such a hastle.
We all have to follw the instructions and safety instruction

a, electrical instalation and insulation The less wired you can see the easier its going to registered.

b,Brakes Compolsury to have the same system as was in the car fefore conversion..vacuum pump- auto switch-- brakes in good order and vacuum hoses and brake cylindernot leaking and functional,

c,Demister must be safe with no exposed hot wires and fan must be sonnected together with the switch( I have come across a heater -demister 150w/12volt you place on the dashboard and connect to cig- lighter -can direct heat to all glass area and if you use the standard car fan i assume this to be the safest demist of them all us price us24$
I ordered 2 so I can have a spare.
d, Steering must be in good condition.

e,Cutting floors in vehicle is a bit risky-- best is to talk to the engineer and perhaps his advice will also quarantee rego. They charge 80$ p/h so you will have to do all the right things before you call him or present the car to him for certification.

f, removing rear seat from car permanently will need also certification-aproval and change the plate from 5 seater to 2 seater
your engineer will be your pasport to registration aproval

g, If you are going to place batteries inside the passenger cabin, the back seat is the best ballanced place to use. Firmly attached battery box has to be build to hold your amount of batteries and the prefered ones are agm they are available in 100-120-150-and 200 amp
Aproved for Transport by air D.O.T I.A.T.A F.A.A + C.A.B
certified U.L. Recognised -MN 20845
CE Complient--- that is pretty strong safety recognition.
Firewall has to be build over the top of batteries with one air inlet and one outlet. all connections must be fully insulated. Batteries have to tightened down and with air space between. These batteried can be used in any position.

Bit more later
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

Goombi wrote: DO NOT CONNECT YOUR BLACK (or red) HIGH VOLTAGE WIRE TO ANY PART OF THE CAR BODY


NCOP14 2.5 says:
"The electrical propultion circuit should be isolated from other circuits of the vehicle"

This is the only sentence that discusses isolation in NCOP14.
It does NOT say you should isolate it from GROUND.

The Motor controller or "power unit" as NCOP14 calls it is the main part of an eV.
It handles high currents and/or high voltages.
So it is best to "isolate it from other circuits" just in case something bad happens to it!
ie put it somewhere out of the way -> ISOLATED.

And the wire will be ORANGE as per NCOP14 3.1
mickles wrote: Everything I have read in the EV literature has said that there should not be a connection between the high voltage and low voltage system. What am I missing?


NCOP14 2.5 says:
"If safety equipment such as lights, brakes and windscreen wipers use the same power source as the traction motor, these services must be supplied in preference to the traction circuit".

ie you can connect them.
But why would you?
A standard 12V brake globe won't handle 144V.

It is a lot of work to convert your entire car electrical system to that of the traction voltage.
It is far easier to get a DC-DC converter to supply power to the original car battery and electric system.


NCOP14 is your eV bible.
It is there for your safety.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

If you print pages from 13 - 19 NCOP14 you can then go step by step solving all jobs and then tick as they are finished..
When one read this   guideline one can clearly understand the transport departments having control over some cowboys
I feel the conversion is not too tough and whats more one person can do it very well in few month with basic mechanical experience and help with electrical cirquitry and wiring.. actually its a lot of fun and great challange and finally satisfaction that one will deny Kevin to spend 57cents from every liter of petrol one will not be used.

PS high voltage over 36 volt is illegal to use as primary current in a passenger vehicle.



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Richo
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Post by Richo »

Goombi wrote:high voltage over 36 volt is illegal to use as primary current in a passenger vehicle.

NCOP14 2.7 says:
"Where possible, all wiring should be located outside the passenger compartment or load space in order to minimise the possibility of contact by the operator or passengers."

Note it says "ALL wiring" not just over 36V.
36V has no relevance either.
32V is the NCOP14 recommended limit before using ORANGE wire (nothing else)
You can run 144V in the dash if you want as long as it is properly insulated, effectively secured, orange in colour and passengers and driver can't come in contact with it.

NCOP14 is your eV bible.
It is in colour.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

Richo,
Please keep it simple-- there is enough confusion about...

If i can reccomend please follow the guideline to the letter and you can't go wrong. There are places where a bit of common sense will be prefered.





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Richo
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Post by Richo »

If people are confused then they should ask.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

NCOP14 SUGGESTS, not requires isolation of function between traction battery and 12V systems battery for obvious functional reasons. E.g. lights, horn and hazard flashers will still work even if there is a traction system fault.
Please read 'isolation' as a functional (functional) and not as insulation (electrical).

The traction battery can power the 12V system but this should be in preference to the traction system and continue even if there is a traction system fault.

For instance a 12V system with a small battery reserve can be charged from the traction battery. This implies neither isolation nor insulation electrically, however satisfies the need for functional isolation.

An insulation fault in an EV must result in battery pack shutdown by either contactors or fuses.
The AEVA safety and standards committee will expand on this point in the near future.

Image
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Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

Here I was looking for people that have completed the conversion and registered their cars.. Not one has expressd any experience with the transport authorities --of engineers appointed by the department or in face any success with registration... What am i making out of that?

There is not one here on this chat, and the talk is professional as though all were in their second conversion.. or the folks with complete and registered cars do no visit this chat room any more.?? I have noticed quite a bit of negative talk and remarks...Why is that?
I have hoped that this chat will expedite production and inform converters of many aspects related to our projects.

Also.. There seem to be 2 camps here   one AC and the othe DC. People that are doing AC talk diferent and press down dc converters. There is nothing wrong with DC builders, peoples budgets are variable and they do not have to travel more then 50 KM or go faster then city speed.

Besides I am yet to see AC doing any better within a reasonable budget.
(personal opinion) here on this chat anyway.. Since there are no owners here with registered cars that wish to share their experinces with authorities, we may as well close this forum
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Johny
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Post by Johny »

Gosh Goombi, ask acmotor - notice the post above. He's on forums almost constantly and while he has used AC, has great advice on either. Also on third conversion.
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

It's true people with complete eV's tend not to be on the Forum as much.
But they do like to come to the AEVA meetings to show off their cars. Image
Goombi wrote:Besides I am yet to see AC doing any better within a reasonable budget.
See the super-duper AC system here Image

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
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Post by Rob M »

I have registered an EV and it wasn't too difficult. The current requirements are covered by the NCOP and are still relevent. Dont get bogged down by might be's and proposed changes to the regs. Electric vehicle technology is changing rapidly but so is all motor vehicle technology. The licencing authorities need our input to keep the regulations up to date. (For example LED headlights are technically illegal)
The regulations are there for everybody's protection.
The WAEVA is looking at proposing some suggestions in this regard so your input is welcomed.
As a further example, the authority will not allow a vehicle to be registered if the traction pack is not isolated from the vehicle chassis. This is obviously an urgent issue that needs to be addressed before Tuarn can get an EV registered. I am convinced that Tuarn's system is safe but it does not abide by the current regulations. The regulations need to be amended and hopefully this will happen.
Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

Richo,

Sorry but your super duper AC system does nothing to me..It reminds me of a lame horse....OO-OO-OO
If you want a sample of excellence visit Shawn Williams Echo site..


Goombi
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Post by Goombi »


I feel this site is very educational and comprehensively composed. And detailed process of registration problems to overcome. Study it thoroughly It will help you with your EV.


http://evalbum.com/566
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

NCOP14 clause 2.5 checklist.

" Are the electrical propulsion circuits separated from other electrical circuits ? "

This is for the purpose of function of the 12V systems as the section describes.

Nowhere does NCOP14 say traction pack is to be isolated from the vehicle chassis. This is a myth and also technically wrong from an electrical safety standards point of view.
Rob is right that there are some DPI guidelines that need to be worked on. Anyway, I'll find out soon.

Goombi,
I too had looked at Shaun's conversion on evalbum some years ago.
He did well. At least it is an EV. But hardly an object of desire !
Range 24km 'on a good day'
flooded lead acids (ouch)
8" DC with retained gearbox
alternator, no DC-DC (primative)
600Wh/mile ( must be a typo, you could run a bus on that )
with comments interjected into the NCOP14 docco that you too can download off the net.
and all for $23,860 ! That would blow my budget.
Yes, quite educational as you say. What did I learn ? Don't do any of the above ! Image

I take your point that Shaun presented a lot of information about the conversion. It would help if there are more listing like his. Image
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

Giddy-up Image

You said a resonable budget...


Yeah Sorry ACmotor I should have left the link out.
I have an Echo but I would rather sell it than convert it. Image
Suzi is defn more fun than any echo would ever be Image
Last edited by Richo on Thu, 21 Aug 2008, 19:52, edited 1 time in total.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Rob M »

acmotor wrote: NCOP14 clause 2.5 checklist.

" Are the electrical propulsion circuits separated from other electrical circuits ? "

This is for the purpose of function of the 12V systems as the section describes.

Nowhere does NCOP14 say traction pack is to be isolated from the vehicle chassis. This is a myth and also technically wrong from an electrical safety standards point of view.
[/IMG]

NCOP 14 2.5 POWER UNIT
"The electrical propulsion circuit must be isolated from other circuits in the vehicle"
This implies that the propulsion circuit and the 12 volt system cannot share the same conductor/s in this case the chassis.
It is not a myth but it might be technically wrong.
Cheers
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