thinking of converting, quick questions before i

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
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nazar
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thinking of converting, quick questions before i

Post by nazar »

hi there, been reading a lot about EV's (cars and batteries)

1) with all the battery tech due to come out this year or the next couple of years - would it be worth doing a conversion now?

2) the GM Bolt (although not to be sold in AU apparently) is said to have just shy of 200 miles >> 320KM, can we get anywhere near this in a conversion (i would like 200KM min :)

3) i know conversions are relatively easy (so to speak) on a older car/ute - is it much more complicated on a modern car with the electronics so much more advanced? e.g. a nissan x-trail 2012


it shows i haven't kept up with it, but the desire to have one is still strong :)
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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jonescg
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Post by jonescg »

Batteries are always getting better, but the moral to the story is slow and steady. Your most energy dense battery will be made of 18650 cylindrical (laptop) cells. Downside with these cells is the need for lots and lots of spotwelded connections. Also, their power (C-rate) isn't that flash.

Next option is pouch cells - these are up around 180 Wh/kg and still have great power. Not as complex to terminate, and they fit into regular volumetric shapes quite nicely. They use the same chemistry as the cylindrical cells but the pouch is more susceptible to physical trauma, so package them well.

LiFePO4 will never get close to the energy density you seek. A 200 km + conversion using LiFePO4 cells would need at least 400 kg worth of cells.

How much do you want to spend? Cause waiting for a Model 3 or a GM Bolt might be cheaper. Sure, you lose the technical challenge of building your own car, but they do make a highly refined vehicle.
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nazar
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Post by nazar »

About $15,000 plus donar car,,,, sounds like batteries aren't quite there for me :( how about a small car that does about 150km? 4 seats
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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jonescg
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Post by jonescg »

DC motor and controller ($3k) 18 kWh worth of garden variety LiFePO4 batteries ($12k) and the lightest, largest donor chassis you can find. Onboard charger is about another $2k.

This will probably get you about 100-120 km, but not at highway speeds.
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nazar
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Post by nazar »

Hmmm thanks, that really clarifies things - I did a conversion push bike about 5 years ago and used lifepo4 battery, batteries are definitely moving slowly :(

Hey thanks for the great advice :)
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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jonescg
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Post by jonescg »

Yeah, it all comes down to economy of scale. The reason Tesla can make a car that goes 300 km to a charge is cause they have robots cranking them out a couple of hundred cars a week. They have their battery manufacture happening in the same place, and its all ground up so there's no compromise. There will always be conversions, and they will always be more expensive; just as restoring a 30 year old car will cost more than a Nissan Pulsar and still provide you with 1986 standard vehicle.

For what it's worth, I still harbour plans to convert my CRX to electric, but the scope of the project keeps blowing out. The body will rust before I get around to it, so now I'm looking at taking moulds and building one in composites. It will be an AC job, 40 kWh of battery, good for 200 km of highway driving. Cost of parts alone is over $50k.

...I still put a deposit on a Model 3 in the meantime...
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

jonescg wrote:...I still put a deposit on a Model 3 in the meantime...

Given the number of orders Tesla got in like the first 5min those robots might take some time before they make your car.
nazar wrote:how about a small car that does about 150km? 4 seats


Realistically how often would actually driver over 100km?
Even in Rural WA most ppl live within 100km of their local town center.

At once a week of 100km+ it would still make more sense to have a 100km range car with a range extender.(series hybrid)
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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nazar
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Post by nazar »

Image yep, don't like hybrids,,,, I live rural and I drive to neibouring town all the time (100km round trip), new battery coming out at the end of this year - if it happens, will re-look at a conversion :)

50k for parts is a lot (we always fall in love with a certain make :)
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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jonescg
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Post by jonescg »

Yeah but thats $50k for all top of the line AC motor, Rinehart inverter, energy dense battery... and thats before I've even cut the rust out of the windowsill...
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nazar
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Post by nazar »

Image I think the bolt would be cheaper, but doing it yourself gives a lot of satisfaction and we all love certain makes of cars :) as I think this one holds special meaning for you Image
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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Post by mikedufty »

If the X-trail is what you are thinking of converting, a 2nd hand Outlander PHEV might be worth looking at. Similar vehicle, but all the electric motors are there already, you could then play with adding extra batteries.
T1 Terry
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Post by T1 Terry »

I think this is where the conversion trend is heading, no longer a vehicle conversion but rather an upgrade of the full electric range of a hybrid would still give you that hands on thing without the high costs of a serious full electric vehicle conversion.
The other avenue is converting a much loved vehicle using the parts out of a wrecked full electric or PHEV

T1 Terry
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nazar
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Post by nazar »

Thanks guys Image
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

nazar wrote:...new battery coming out at the end of this year


Really I wasn't aware of any significant change on energy density or $/Wh that would change ppl's minds on converting.
I'm still slowly converting my car one bolt at a time mixed in with the other 1000's of things I'm doing.
I'd probably give more focus if my battery options were more appealing.
Any hints on what it might be?
End of the year would be about a good time too...
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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nazar
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Post by nazar »

There is a lot of news and money being pumped into R&D, one report (remember there is many different battery types being researched (lithiam-air,solid state,magnesium,I forget the rest as it will be announced massively when it happens) one company estimates this year.

Hope this helps

One thing is for sure, provided there is a massive improvement in battery (one company 200,000 charges/drains in 3 months-no degradation, incredible energy density, light, recharge in 6 minutes) there will be a massive explosion in EV's, house battery storage & electric grid storage :)

Until one gets released I wouldn't get excited though - hype is always better than fact, and release dates are always optimal at best :)

Hope this helps
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

Most large format batteries only last 10 years.
10 Years x 365 = 3650 cycles.
Having more than this has little benefit for an ev.
LTO's are already available with 10K+ cycles.
Until they can make their usable life 20+ years the cycles will go to waste.
200k+ cycles - 500+ years not really practical.
Perhaps the exception would be a bus type infrastructure that charges at each stop and only have enough capacity for a few stops to reduce weight.

The reason for Lithium(3) batteries is it the lightest metal.
Magnesium(12) is heavier.
Lithium-air being the best if achievable.

Even if a breakthrough did come to fruition right now and overtake lipo 18650 batteries realistically it may only be 10-20% cheaper due to market placement of the product.
But that would take many years - not later this year.

I still advise any prospective converter to budget and design for batteries that are available now.

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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nazar
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Post by nazar »

Your forgetting the greater energy capacity Image but yes, your right, it will b very expensive until a few years of production
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

http://www.energy.gov/technologytransit ... t-national
The link above is the latest news for the US spending millions to fund better battery research.
Even that is a 5 year plan.
Assuming something came of it after the 5 years that's probably another 5 years before production and perhaps another 5 years before I could get my hands on them at a reasonable price.

That'll mean people converting today will probably be on their 2nd pack anyway.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by T1 Terry »

Then consider the Aquion salt water battery development, not an EV applicable battery but how long from conception to market? Professor Jay Whitacre was involved in the first Mars Rover missions and they were lithium powered, he was involved in the batteries for the landing stages of the latest Mars exploration project and yet there was enough time to develop the concept, find funding for each stage and actually get from concept to production to commercial production, research started in 2007 and they have been on the market for a while now so new technology doesn't have to take forever to reach the market place

T1 Terry
Last edited by T1 Terry on Tue, 02 Aug 2016, 08:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

nazar wrote: I think the bolt would be cheaper


So you're more leaning towards a production car after all this?

I still don't like most of them and a Telsa is more than I want to spend on a car.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
nazar
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Post by nazar »

T1 Terry wrote: Then consider the Aquion salt water battery development, not an EV applicable battery but how long from conception to market? Professor Jay Whitacre was involved in the first Mars Rover missions and they were lithium powered, he was involved in the batteries for the landing stages of the latest Mars exploration project and yet there was enough time to develop the concept, find funding for each stage and actually get from concept to production to commercial production, research started in 2007 and they have been on the market for a while now so new technology doesn't have to take forever to reach the market place

T1 Terry


good point :) you never know
Richo wrote: http://www.energy.gov/technologytransit ... t-national
The link above is the latest news for the US spending millions to fund better battery research.
Even that is a 5 year plan.
Assuming something came of it after the 5 years that's probably another 5 years before production and perhaps another 5 years before I could get my hands on them at a reasonable price.

That'll mean people converting today will probably be on their 2nd pack anyway.


why stick with lithium???? you may develop better batteries but lithium will never be the "be all and end all"
https://news.uci.edu/research/all-powered-up/
Richo wrote:
nazar wrote: I think the bolt would be cheaper


So you're more leaning towards a production car after all this?

I still don't like most of them and a Telsa is more than I want to spend on a car.


i was actually responding to something you said :) that cheaper option for you may be a production car, for me i am open to either option - but i have realised that until batteries are improved - i can't get the distance i need or it will cost too much :)
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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Richo
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Post by Richo »

nazar wrote:why stick with lithium???? you may develop better batteries but lithium will never be the "be all and end all"
https://news.uci.edu/research/all-powered-up/

Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread.
But for a battery you need an anode(-) and cathode(+).
You need these to have electron flow.
We use lithium as it is the lightest(3).
You can use other elements but they will be heavier.

The devil is in the fine print.
UCI News wrote: Mya Le Thai has developed a nanowire-based technology that allows lithium-ion batteries to be recharged hundreds of thousands of times
Still lithium based.
All they are doing is helping the electrons to move without decay to the rest of the battery.

As you can well imagine there are only so many elements and thus combinations that make a battery.
Eliminate the radioactive ones, heavy ones, and super toxic ones and you are really only left with a handful of combinations.
Sorry no magic bullets today Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
nazar
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Post by nazar »

UCI News wrote: Mya Le Thai has developed a nanowire-based technology that allows lithium-ion batteries to be recharged hundreds of thousands of times
Still lithium based.
All they are doing is helping the electrons to move without decay to the rest of the battery.

As you can well imagine there are only so many elements and thus combinations that make a battery.
Eliminate the radioactive ones, heavy ones, and super toxic ones and you are really only left with a handful of combinations.
Sorry no magic bullets today Image


Image DOH, yep, i feel pretty stupid now for missing that :) thanks for pointing out and explaining :thumbsup: Image
there is an awful lot to learn about EV's :)
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